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"The origin of a classic 3 Stooges pie gag"
Love you, too
FYI I was reading a bio on The 3 Stooges and found something I did not know....that the classic pie on the ceiling gag that The 3 Stooges deployed in "Half Wits Holiday" and "Pies and Guys" was a gag they borrowed from an earlier 1934 Andy Clyde short called "In the Doghouse". Here is the original version where Vivian Oakland gets pied .... I had not seen this before...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwvjxYgTzFA
This shows you what a difference good dialogue makes....because this version is executed in the same way as The 3 Stooges version, but the 3 Stooges version is funnier because of Moe's dialogue and the "Sword of Damocles" line. The other noticeable difference was thanks to Edward Bernds who was the sound engineer responsible for all the sound effects on 3 Stooges films...a 3 Stooges short would not have been so funny without those sound effects,
MK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwvjxYgTzFA
This shows you what a difference good dialogue makes....because this version is executed in the same way as The 3 Stooges version, but the 3 Stooges version is funnier because of Moe's dialogue and the "Sword of Damocles" line. The other noticeable difference was thanks to Edward Bernds who was the sound engineer responsible for all the sound effects on 3 Stooges films...a 3 Stooges short would not have been so funny without those sound effects,
MK
Do unto others, then run
Mark...you found something I had been looking for...for ages.
I originally saw this in a History of Film class back in the last 70's. My professor was a collector of old black and white movies and had this scene as an example of slapstick. I never knew the name of the movie or even the actors. Thank you!
Robby
I originally saw this in a History of Film class back in the last 70's. My professor was a collector of old black and white movies and had this scene as an example of slapstick. I never knew the name of the movie or even the actors. Thank you!
Robby
RobbyWLP said: Mark...you found something I had been looking for...for ages.
I originally saw this in a History of Film class back in the last 70's. My professor was a collector of old black and white movies and had this scene as an example of slapstick. I never knew the name of the movie or even the actors. Thank you!
Robby
I originally saw this in a History of Film class back in the last 70's. My professor was a collector of old black and white movies and had this scene as an example of slapstick. I never knew the name of the movie or even the actors. Thank you!
Robby
Mark is a savant at this stuff. He could write a WAM version of Trivial Pursuit.
He's more potato now than man. Twisted and evil.
Another reason, I think, the gag fell flat, as Mark points out, is the dialogue. Family problems, especially during the Depression, just isn't funny.
A good source for a lot of material about Columbia is threestooges.net and it's companion site moronika.com that can be accessed through threestooges.net.
A good source for a lot of material about Columbia is threestooges.net and it's companion site moronika.com that can be accessed through threestooges.net.
RobbyWLP said: Mark...you found something I had been looking for...for ages.
I originally saw this in a History of Film class back in the last 70's. My professor was a collector of old black and white movies and had this scene as an example of slapstick. I never knew the name of the movie or even the actors. Thank you!
Robby
I originally saw this in a History of Film class back in the last 70's. My professor was a collector of old black and white movies and had this scene as an example of slapstick. I never knew the name of the movie or even the actors. Thank you!
Robby
Now pay it forward* and track down the Elvira** clip!!!!
* See what I did there?
** See what I did there???
This is a great discovery, even if the comedy doesn't play as well as the ceiling pie done with the Three Stooges, it's still a very thick cream pie that finds it's mark with the always game Vivian Oakland. She regularly worked with Laurel & Hardy and many of the top slapstick comics of the day and is one of those lovely actresses of the time that, depending on the film, could be on the end of messy slapstick, like Dorothy Coburn (the pretty girl who was pied on the bottom and then the face in L&H "Battle of the Century", mud splattered in L&H "Should Married Men Go Home?", and pied in the Our Gang short "Shivering Shakespeare") and Ellinor Vanderveer who was the dignified woman pied in "Battle of the Century", among others: http://www.lordheath.com/menu1_265.html
Let the pies fly!
Potatoman-J said:
Mark is a savant at this stuff. He could write a WAM version of Trivial Pursuit.
Mark is a savant at this stuff. He could write a WAM version of Trivial Pursuit.
No.....Hurley was a savant on this stuff, I am merely a guy who enjoys a cup of coffee while reading Wikipedia articles and IMDB info. I enjoy doing research to try and find things, so I am often chasing stuff down rabbit holes of information to see where it leads. For example, I never knew the story about the mysterious death of Ted Healy, the creator of The 3 Stooges, and how he was apparently beaten to death but nothing was ever proven and nobody was charged, and one of the 3 guys who allegedly beat him to death was a guy who later gained fame as the producer of the James Bond films, Albert Broccoli.
I merely stumbled upon the info about the pie on the ceiling gag because I decided to re-watch a complete DVD package of every single Stooges short ever made, watching them in sequential order and reading Wikipedia about the background stories to every short.
Unlike Rick Harrison, the so-called sage and star of the Pawn Stars tv show....who tries to sound intelligent and knowledgeable about everything...but you get the impression he is just reading stuff he saw on Wikipedia....I am no sage....just wam fan who enjoys reading stuff he finds on Wikipedia.
MK
Do unto others, then run
Mark is wayyyyy too humble here. Anybody who watches each and ever Stooge short in order while conducting online research in each...is a savant! For the benefit of the entire community! Thank you!!!
This also made me think about how many truly lost pie scenes might be out there in reels of deteriorating celluloid??? And how many from old local TV shows that were erased or tossed?
And how about all those live action pies in vaudeville skits seen only by the audience at the time ?
Great find!
This also made me think about how many truly lost pie scenes might be out there in reels of deteriorating celluloid??? And how many from old local TV shows that were erased or tossed?
And how about all those live action pies in vaudeville skits seen only by the audience at the time ?
Great find!
fredsout said:
This also made me think about how many truly lost pie scenes might be out there in reels of deteriorating celluloid??? And how many from old local TV shows that were erased or tossed?
This also made me think about how many truly lost pie scenes might be out there in reels of deteriorating celluloid??? And how many from old local TV shows that were erased or tossed?
Basically, the entire history of pies in television, up through the early 1960s anyway. (Both American and British TV, apparently.) Now granted, these "lost scenes" are mainly male (because that's how it always was/still is).... But we're still missing a ton of stuff from Ernie Kovacs (who actually believed in pie equality) and the infamous Steve Allen "Playboy Bunny pie fight," which is spoken of in legendary terms by old folks around here... as it hasn't really been seen since its air date.
Anyway, these and thousands of other clips are gone forever, as the reels were taped over by short-sighted execs. I suppose some private collector might have saved something, but that's an incredibly long shot given that the public didn't even have access to video recording technology until the 70s.
And most silent films are gone forever too.... including many early pie-in-the-face bits, like various Keystone Cops shorts and others. Folks always think of "Battle Of The Century" as one of the first examples of a silent movie pie fight, when in fact it's one of the LAST ones. That era was already over by the time the short was made. (Laurel & Hardy were basically doing a tribute to a style of comedy no longer in fashion.) And of course, even BOTC had reels missing for decades.....
Well, the dialogue may not have been as funny as the 3 Stooges version, but the physical comedy set-up was much better (more clever and involved): a romantic embrace, the guy 'dips' the gal (into pie receiving position, face up), he turns away just for a second to prepare for a kiss, the pie falls and splats wonderfully on gal's face, guy turn back to gal, lifts her head up, kisses her (now pied) face, and gets pie in his mouth (to his surprise), as gal faces camera and wipes her eyes....the scene could have worked completely silently....and the timing of everything (even given that it was edited) is perfection. Brilliant.
'Our Favorite (Pie) Hits' now available!
Actually wasn't a complete print of BOTC discovered a while back? Wait a sec...yep:
http://www.silentfilm.org/the-battle-of-the-century-and-other-comedy-restorations-festival-2016
I guess the penultimate sentence kind of applies to us, too.
While we're kinda sorta on the subject, I wouldn't mind having the complete set of Hurley cliptape DVDs, as there were some clips on there I vaguely remembered from when I was a kid, but haven't seen anywhere. I'm not asking for them, but I wouldn't refuse them if offered.
http://www.silentfilm.org/the-battle-of-the-century-and-other-comedy-restorations-festival-2016
Leonard Maltin:
I was working as a curator for the Museum of Modern Art’s salute to American comedy for the Bicentennial, when, to my astonishment, I discovered that MoMA held a 35mm nitrate print of Battle’s first reel in its vaults. It was sitting there for years but no one realized it! I practically burst open with excitement as I watched it and then programmed it for a Sunday showing with other comedy shorts. But that Sunday the projectionist was fearful that a torn sprocket could ignite the highly flammable film. He refused to run it, which was his prerogative but also a great disappointment. At least Reel One had been uncovered and was subsequently preserved. (It also revealed the presence of future comedy star Lou Costello as an extra in the front row of spectators at Stan Laurel’s prizefight.)
Then, last summer [2015 or 16 by the date on the article], film collector (and silent film pianist) Jon Mirsalis found the complete Reel Two among the titles he purchased from the Gordon Berkow estateincluding prints Berkow acquired from the collection of The Golden Age of Comedy’s producer Robert Youngson. It seems Youngson struck a 16mm print for himself while he had access to the 35mm negative in the 1950s.
There is still some missing footage from the end of Reel One in which Eugene Pallette sells Oliver Hardy accident insurance on his pal Stan Laurel. Years ago, Blackhawk Films filled in this gap with a pair of stills and two title cards when they released the incomplete film on 16mm. Reel Two, however, is intactand was well worth waiting a lifetime to see. Youngson chose the shots he liked best for his compilation feature and did a seamless job of editing, but the complete pie fight is four minutes longer and even funnier. We have Serge Bromberg of Lobster Films to thank (along with the Museum of Modern Art, Library of Congress, and Blackhawk’s David Shepard) for bringing the elements together and enabling us to see The Battle of the Century in all its glory. Its discovery, after so many years, fuels the hope of film buffs everywhere that other films on our wish lists might still turn up. Would that they all turned out to be as great as this one.
I was working as a curator for the Museum of Modern Art’s salute to American comedy for the Bicentennial, when, to my astonishment, I discovered that MoMA held a 35mm nitrate print of Battle’s first reel in its vaults. It was sitting there for years but no one realized it! I practically burst open with excitement as I watched it and then programmed it for a Sunday showing with other comedy shorts. But that Sunday the projectionist was fearful that a torn sprocket could ignite the highly flammable film. He refused to run it, which was his prerogative but also a great disappointment. At least Reel One had been uncovered and was subsequently preserved. (It also revealed the presence of future comedy star Lou Costello as an extra in the front row of spectators at Stan Laurel’s prizefight.)
Then, last summer [2015 or 16 by the date on the article], film collector (and silent film pianist) Jon Mirsalis found the complete Reel Two among the titles he purchased from the Gordon Berkow estateincluding prints Berkow acquired from the collection of The Golden Age of Comedy’s producer Robert Youngson. It seems Youngson struck a 16mm print for himself while he had access to the 35mm negative in the 1950s.
There is still some missing footage from the end of Reel One in which Eugene Pallette sells Oliver Hardy accident insurance on his pal Stan Laurel. Years ago, Blackhawk Films filled in this gap with a pair of stills and two title cards when they released the incomplete film on 16mm. Reel Two, however, is intactand was well worth waiting a lifetime to see. Youngson chose the shots he liked best for his compilation feature and did a seamless job of editing, but the complete pie fight is four minutes longer and even funnier. We have Serge Bromberg of Lobster Films to thank (along with the Museum of Modern Art, Library of Congress, and Blackhawk’s David Shepard) for bringing the elements together and enabling us to see The Battle of the Century in all its glory. Its discovery, after so many years, fuels the hope of film buffs everywhere that other films on our wish lists might still turn up. Would that they all turned out to be as great as this one.
I guess the penultimate sentence kind of applies to us, too.
While we're kinda sorta on the subject, I wouldn't mind having the complete set of Hurley cliptape DVDs, as there were some clips on there I vaguely remembered from when I was a kid, but haven't seen anywhere. I'm not asking for them, but I wouldn't refuse them if offered.
Another couple of tid bits from old interviews with Larry Fine, who describes what happened during some of their pie fights. Larry Fine said
"Sometimes we would run out of pies, so the prop man would sweep up the pie goop off the floor, complete with nails, splinters, and tacks."
That reminds me of some of my shoots with Lenny. Although we never ran out of pies during a shoot we sometimes shovelled the wasted pies on the floor (the missed pie hits) and used them in a later messy clean up shoot, A couple of times our shovelled up pies had ants crawling in them -- the girls were not amused.
Also, Larry Fine gave us Producers this tip from Stooges director Jules White...i.e. how to get the best surprise reaction shot when pie'ing somebody....Larry said
"Another problem was pretending you didn't know a pie was coming your way. To solve this, Jules would tell me 'Now Larry, Moe is going to smack you with a pie on the count of three.' Then Jules would tell Moe, 'Hit Larry on the count of two!' So when it came time to count, I never got to three, because Moe crowned me with a pie".
Now that is an interesting technique Rob Blaine, Lenny and I never used. I wonder if Rich uses that technique.
MK
"Sometimes we would run out of pies, so the prop man would sweep up the pie goop off the floor, complete with nails, splinters, and tacks."
That reminds me of some of my shoots with Lenny. Although we never ran out of pies during a shoot we sometimes shovelled the wasted pies on the floor (the missed pie hits) and used them in a later messy clean up shoot, A couple of times our shovelled up pies had ants crawling in them -- the girls were not amused.
Also, Larry Fine gave us Producers this tip from Stooges director Jules White...i.e. how to get the best surprise reaction shot when pie'ing somebody....Larry said
"Another problem was pretending you didn't know a pie was coming your way. To solve this, Jules would tell me 'Now Larry, Moe is going to smack you with a pie on the count of three.' Then Jules would tell Moe, 'Hit Larry on the count of two!' So when it came time to count, I never got to three, because Moe crowned me with a pie".
Now that is an interesting technique Rob Blaine, Lenny and I never used. I wonder if Rich uses that technique.
MK
Do unto others, then run
wamtec said: Another couple of tid bits from old interviews with Larry Fine, who describes what happened during some of their pie fights. Larry Fine said
"Sometimes we would run out of pies, so the prop man would sweep up the pie goop off the floor, complete with nails, splinters, and tacks."
MK
"Sometimes we would run out of pies, so the prop man would sweep up the pie goop off the floor, complete with nails, splinters, and tacks."
MK
Also, another homeboy of Philly. ::beams with pride:: His birthplace (on 3rd and South St) is now a bar and grille (no idea if it's any good or not) but it's got a bangin mural on it.
https://www.muralarts.org/artworks/larry-fine/
He's more potato now than man. Twisted and evil.
wamtec said:
That reminds me of some of my shoots with Lenny. Although we never ran out of pies during a shoot we sometimes shovelled the wasted pies on the floor (the missed pie hits) and used them in a later messy clean up shoot, A couple of times our shovelled up pies had ants crawling in them -- the girls were not amused.
That reminds me of some of my shoots with Lenny. Although we never ran out of pies during a shoot we sometimes shovelled the wasted pies on the floor (the missed pie hits) and used them in a later messy clean up shoot, A couple of times our shovelled up pies had ants crawling in them -- the girls were not amused.
I'm not above recycling, but you have to do it the right way. (Spoiler: No ants.)
--Cakes.... totally recyclable. The best models can get two, sometimes three, totally different coverage "looks" out of one cake! Even more if it's a sheet cake!
--Pies.... slightly recyclable. I've pulled some pie filling off the backdrop and put it into an empty tin (now plastic liner), and sometimes it's as good as a real pie! Did this with Abby in one of those SS213 scenes.
--Slime.... recyclable as pies?? Love doing this. Just get the slime off the floor, and spoon it into pie tins/liners. Presto! Slime pie and extra slime coverage! The best models will let you slime pie them multiple times! (Again, Abby... also Shauna, Candi, Amanda...)
But man, Lucy HATED all this. And called me out if she caught me doing it.
wamtec said:
"Another problem was pretending you didn't know a pie was coming your way. To solve this, Jules would tell me 'Now Larry, Moe is going to smack you with a pie on the count of three.' Then Jules would tell Moe, 'Hit Larry on the count of two!' So when it came time to count, I never got to three, because Moe crowned me with a pie".
Now that is an interesting technique Rob Blaine, Lenny and I never used. I wonder if Rich uses that technique.
MK
"Another problem was pretending you didn't know a pie was coming your way. To solve this, Jules would tell me 'Now Larry, Moe is going to smack you with a pie on the count of three.' Then Jules would tell Moe, 'Hit Larry on the count of two!' So when it came time to count, I never got to three, because Moe crowned me with a pie".
Now that is an interesting technique Rob Blaine, Lenny and I never used. I wonder if Rich uses that technique.
MK
If we're in a good "rhythm," I'll be throwing the pies when the model doesn't know they're coming, and the reactions are (almost) always great. It depends on the model. Some don't like being caught off guard so I'll make a point to "warn" them beforehand.
It only backfired one time.... The poor girl from SS160 had her mouth open, took a MASSIVE gulp of pie (a mix of pudding and SC, unfortunately), and almost gagged. She finished the scene like a trooper, but it took a WHILE to convince her to come back after that.
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