Keir starmer is the most dangerous politician we've ever had in UK, his soul mission is to eradicate the left. people moan about the Tories and don't want them in power but we cannot ever have him in power,

Say yes to freedom! Say yes to democracy, SAY NO TO STARMER

He is a pathological liar, he ran on one of the most deceitful and dishonest leadership campaign in political history, he has decimated the labour youth, he has broken every single promise that has gotten into this position and he stands for absolutely nothing.

and people say Boris Johnson is bad and he is... but this guy is terrifying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NIzPwdc988

Oh, my goodness me.
The UK is crying out for a change towards progressive values.
Our public services are on life support.
Our society becomes more unequal.
We need to start to turn the ship around.
It's a big ship and it will take time to turn just a little.
If you oppose Sir Keir Starmer, who and what on earth are you offering us?

Peter

The head of a party does not have absolute power. He can try to enact any law but still has to get it past a. the opposition and b. HIS OWN PARTY.
Too many bad calls and he can be removed (a la the tory party games last year).

KS will not destroy the left, the party maybe more middle ground now, where the majority of Brits vote and thus win general elections, but there will always be a left.

Owen Jones... I've met him before at a Labour party event, he's just as big of a prat in person as he is online and in the media.

The Labour Party has spent much of it's history trying to reconcile political purity with political reality. It's nothing new, as Gordon Brown illustrates brilliantly in his book, "Maxton." Which is about a man of complete integrity who represented his people with passion and commitment. But his inability to compromise meant that his principles, however worthy, made little impact in his day. There will always be a left, certainly, but they must decide between being a protest movement or part of a broad government of the centre left.

It's like being offered a dog shit sandwich or a horse shit sandwich. I'm done with the the lot of them.

It's hard to stomach voting for him, but I guess you are voting for the party, not the leader. There are some good eggs in the Labour Party whereas I don't think there are any in the Tories.

"I never vote for anyone, I always vote against" - WC Fields.

Voting goes like this. You have to work out if these bastards are less awful than those bastards. And if you don't get out and vote for these bastards, that's one free vote for those bastards because the bastards who vote for those bastards are gonna turn out. And if those bastards get in again because you couldn't bring yourself to vote for these bastards, then you're the bastard.

OK. When I was young there was a version of this that went, "Don't bother voting, it only encourages them!" You saw this on lapel badges and t-shirts. Look around the world at those who have little or no political freedom. Jailed for years and years in Russia for commenting on Ukraine. Women in Iran dying for the right to choose what to wear. "Re-education camps" for ethnic minorities in China. Democracy in Hong Kong crushed. God, we are lucky to live in Western Europe or North America. Our politicians may be a poor lot, they may lie and even have a tendency towards corruption, but is this not better than having no elections at all? Peter

At the next UK general election there are basically two choices, do we want to carry on with Tory-led government, or do we want to have Labour in power.

The exact dynamic is variable, a hung parliament and coalition isn't impossible, but even if that happens, the end result will be either Tory or Labour led as they'll still be the biggest parties.

Depending where you live (assuming mainland GB - NI has its own distinct politics) you might have the option to elect an SNP, Plaid, or LibDem MP, but at the end of the day one of Sunak or Starmer will be the next PM.

And the next and so on... Starmer still wont commit to getting rid of the first past the post system.

Indeed. Blair promised to do so in 97 and renaged on it the instant he had a majority, i don't expect anything different this time.

So the question is, stick with the Tories or give Labour a shot.

We did have a referendum in the UK, on the question of whether to use Proportional Representation for General Elections, in May 2011.
"The Forgotten Referendum"
The result was to stick with, "First Past the Post" by 68% to 32% on a turnout of 42%.
Peter

AV isn't PR though... AV was a fudge choice, because everyone knew it wasn't going to get the support. Either the Welsh or the Scottish at the time systems would have been a better sell to the public.

The main problem with changing the electoral system however is the amount of parliamentary time it would take up, and there is a lot of work needing to be done to try and put more than sticking plasters over the damage. That being said, if the HoL reform is done, then I can see that having PR for it, which would In think be a step in the right direction.

Liz Truss.

See also, Boris Johnson, Suellen Braverman, Pritti vile, Rishi Sunak, kwasi kwateng etc

Well, AV is one of the many variants of PR.
Most of which baffle the experts just as much as the rest of us.

I know we shouldn't keep going on about Nazi Germany.
But in 1932, there were 16 different parties represented in the German parliament.
With no effective government.

Essential laws could only be passed by Presidential decree.
Which set a tragic precedent.

The Nazis seized power after becoming the biggest single party in Nov '32 with only 32% of the vote.

I worry about a hung parliament here with the balance of power held by the extreme right.

Give me Sir Keir any day.

Peter

AV isn't PR, some of the adjusted versions of AV (e.g. the one they used to use in Wales before the reduction in the number of parliamentary constituencies, where you had a regional balance is). It is a fairer system yes, but isn't PR as there isn't a way to balance votes properly.

AV is technically a form of instant runoff vote

Our system has worked quite well in Scotland because the SNP have had a majority (or been close to a majority) on their own in recent elections. Before that Labour and the Libdems worked together, which I guess is what the system is designed to encourage. But I think you would have to ask a lot of voters before you found one who understands exactly how the "list" vote works. We don't really have extremist parties in Scotland, but this system could easily award seats to the likes of the BNP or whatever they are called in England nowadays. The AV system would only reward second-place parties, I think.

Peter

There are only two voting systems the public really understand.


1. First Past The Post, whoever wins, wins and gets elected, others are forgotten. The current system.

2. Pure proportional representation - Party X gets 35% of the vote, Party X gets 35% of the MPs.


Anything else gets bogged down in endless debate on the relative merits of various proportional / list / ranking systems, and the vast majority of people go "sod that, it's not broke, don't fix it."

The system in Scotland was deliberately set up by Labour to prevent the SNP from gaining a majority, except they underestimated the degree of SNP support there was and the SNP got one anyway, several times in a row. Though with the recent issues I suspect the SNP are in for a fairly poor result next time, sadly.

But forgotten or not the 2011 AV referendum burried the idea for at least a generation. I suspect the realities of dealing with the exploding problems of runaway climate change will overtake anything else within the next 20 years.

OK, I'll take the bait... how is Rishi Sunak one of "the most dangerous politician[s] we've ever had in UK"? After the chaos of mendacious Boris, Liz Truss crashing the economy and David Cameron doing so much long-lasting damage with austerity - not to mention Blair and Iraq two decades ago - I'm quite enjoying this period of relative stability and calm. Remember Sunak is not an austerity Tory or ideologically driven: after 9 years of constant cuts to public services under Cameron and May, Sunak was the one pumping money INTO the economy and keeping things afloat during the pandemic. A lot of hard-right Tories hate him because of his Brownian/Keynesian economics (which is a big part of why they picked Truss over him) and because they see him as too centrist. So how is he one of "the most dangerous politician[s] we've ever had in UK"?

Just look at the laws being passed under the Sunak regime - Clamp down on right to protest, a new section 28, attacks on pay for the lower and lower middle during a cost of Tories crisis, while actively encouraging the richest to take bigger and bigger pay, continued decline of standards in parliament, repeated bypassing of legislative procedures including forcing the lords to sit until 4am the day before they adjourned at opening as there wasn't any business, the allowing of Johnsons dishonours list... Need I go on?

Thatcher

Don't vote any more. Can't stand free market capitalism and the Tories, I voted remain in the Brexit referendum, don't like flag waving nationalism either, so puts me on the left.

However, I am left wing economically, but socially conservative. I detest climate change loonies and I can't stand this stupid gender bollocks, 73 genders? WTF, there's bastard two end fucking of!!!!!

They're all shite