Follow on what Rich Said, this is pretty much what I assumed would be the case.

So my thought is if you're going to have to pay a Full Rate on a ANY model that stays clean, the end of the shoot should include that model getting all the leftover recycled smiled dumped upon them to justify the cost.

If you want to produce scenes where one model stays clean, that's fine, you do you, but if you're paying for a STEAK DINNER, don't just fill up on Bread, Salad and Appetizers - Eat the STEAK!

100% agree

Would this be a bad time to mention that I don't like steak?

Seriosuly though, bear in mind when someone pays a model for a shoot, they're paying that person to participate in their vision of how things should go. So someone who's very much into One Stays Clean and wants to see that, might well think that the "steak" is indeed for one of the participants to get away completely clean. The thing that 28 years in the WAM scene - I was here before there was a UMD - has taught me is very much that different people can be into WAM in very, very different ways.

In the case of the shoots being condidered here though, my plan is to offer 1/2 fee for "staying clean and dry" and 3/4 fee for "partly messy". Mainly because I don't think it'd be fair to the girls who are going to get totally messy if the person who wasn't got paid the same for effectively less work, esp regarding messy shampooing, which all of our regulars do in every single scene, and do really well.

Actually I do love gammon steak, but I prefer beef in burgers.

My take has always been:

If it's a game where someone is supposed to stay clean at the end, then honor it. Otherwise, what's the point? Where's the sense of risk if everyone knows they'll both end up messy? That's why I insisted all games where played genuinely.

Of course, the rule was broken occasionally, but usually with reason.

A host is supposed to be the authority figure, and humiliating them strips away that authority. Also, it creates a desire from the audience. Sooner or later...

Back in the day I had a host that didn't get messy. Eventually, there was something like 500 comment petition to slime her... so that's when we did. She was not impressed, but she was a sport and it made for a great video and made a lot of people happy.


- Not pretending there's a right or wrong. Just some food for thought.

The analogy was less about Steak, and more about getting what you've already paid for. My point was if you're going to have to pay a Model the full Wam-Rate regardless of whether she gets messy at all or stays clean, then shoot your video, get your clean model shoot, then film a quick bit where the clean model gets all the leftovers and either sell it as a short or bonus content or whatever.

I guess it doesn't apply, If you're coming at this as someone thinking about the fulfilling of one's Artistic Vision... Art would be Art and if someone WANTS to pay one person the same amount to do "less" that another person, that's completely up to them, however YES, I agree with your proposal outlined here. If they're not getting messy, they shouldn't get paid like those that are.

I just can't help but think about this stuff from a dollars/cents breakdown, where you pay people for what they're actually doing.

Now with Noise's scenario here, I'd consider this to be "a horse of a different color".

If you're specifically hiring two models with the intention to play a game scenario where there's a RISK Element of only 1 model getting Messy and not a Guarantee of both...

Then from a Cost's perspective you pay both Models the Non-Mess Rate from the start, and it can go one of 2 ways...

Either the Risk element is exacerbated by the Loser getting messy without getting compensated as she would have been from a 'guaranteed messy' shoot which is also offset by the possibility of Reward in getting paid to just sit there and laugh and point.

OR

You compensate the model who gets messy in the end with a hazard payment. (But I feel like you might end up having models choosing to lose at that point to get the extra money)

Of course None of that thinking, includes any details which would arise from Individual negotiations of any models particular rates. As some model might be willing to accept getting WAM-BAM-Thank-You-Ma'amed for a rate much less than another model who would charge more for doing less overall.

I certainly don't envy any producers trying to make anything these day...

You've actually misunderstood what he's explaining. He's not paying the full rate for the model, so she stays clean for the lower rate. There's no paying the full rate and keeping her clean. Rich will certainly get his money's worth with a model if she's paid the full rate

I know, I was being facetious.


I can see it from both points of view. However, as I've mentioned, I can also see that someone getting totally messy might feel a bit miffed to find out somoene else in the same scene who isn't, was getting paid the same, hence planning to do half rate for "stays clean", and three-quarters rate for "gets a partly messy". Getting any amount messy is a lot more work than staying clean, but still less than taking a full custard shampoo and facial, as our girls usually all do.

The reason for this thread though was to find out what type(s) of scenes the potential audience might prefer, the nitty gritty of things like pay rates can come once the outline concepts and scene plans are done and agreed with everyone. The discussion has also to some extent clarified in my mind how the initial scenes will be done, and some of the sub-details like D/s inferences, etc.

Going to be interesting scenes to do.

Right, no I got it. I've probably just not explained my thought very well. So for that I apologize. The topic was in a "One Stays Clean" scene: Should the clean person get messy at all?", Based on what Rich said, there's basically no longer a middle ground in 2023 these days, and it's all or nothing.

My add on, was IF one CANNOT negotiate a half or 3/4 rate as was proposed above and a producer will be having to pay the full rate regardless, on a scene where one stays clean, go ahead and get your money's worth.

Obviously Creamy, Rich, Noise and DMO have way more experience with this sort of thing. So I defer to their wisdom on these topics.

Yeah, no I realized I was unable to untangle my thought trajectory regarding costs and the question was more about preferences, I do apologize for going far afield on the original topic.

So, the final results are in. "Stays completely clean" is the clear winner on 67 but both the "part messy" options got 47 each. And the "abomination" vote got 43, which is noted, and don't worry, we're not about to become a full time oschaus, these will be occasional releases in amongst the mainline "everyone gets totally destroyed by mess" ones.

As it clearly won the poll we will definitely do one "stays completely clean" scene, we'll dress Daisy in something very sexy, like a vinyl or pvc catsuit, or skin tight spandex, and she'll get to compare a card game where the two contestants have to totally submit to whatever she does to them - and over the course of the game she will totally anihilate both contestants with mess - while they're not allowed to do the slightest thing back to her.

Then, with everyone in fresh clean outfits, we'll do another game, except this time every time she stands up to do something to one of the contestants, that contestant gets to place or pour something messy onto Daisy's chair, which she then has to sit back down in between turns. And each time she does something to a contestant, Daisy will need to stand with her back to the camera, so we can all see and enjoy the growing mess on her bottom and down her legs. I'm guessing we should have Daisy change into a different outfit than her first one for this, to maintain the "stayed completely clean" vibe for fans of the first scene.

And then for the third scene, she can do the "knickers full of slop but otherwise clean" wam-assistant thing, and drip all over the floor (possibly barefoot) while she's assisting Miss Abigail to explain an outfit style by applying the mess to Miss Abigail in response to Abigail's instructions.

And then possibly to finish off, Daisy changes into either a simple casual outfit like a tracksuit or jeans, **or** she puts the completely clean first outfit back on, and has to sit in a cake and have a bucket of mess poured into her lap which she then spreads all over her lower half.

All still subject to model agreement of course, I was waiting for the poll to close before starting to negotiate the scenes.

I like the idea of having the clean person remain clean as it's more humiliating for the one getting messy to be the sole person having to shower/clean up afterwards. There's a "sucks for you" type of taunting that I enjoy in this scenario, esp when it's the person doing the messing saying it.

Ah yes, that's a classic slime scene. I haven't seen it in awhile, but I do remember it being really good.

Chiming in to say that it's always a joy to see you've uploaded a new PVC scene

That's a good point, might have to work that into one of the scenes.

Though the plans to shoot this year have now been overtaken by events, still hoping to do it next year though.


In that case you're reallty going to like what's just been released to the Members Lounge on Saturation Hall.

I've always paid the same for talent no matter what happens (A flat per-video rate). That's way too much thinking for me and models should always be paid properly.

Then again, things may have changed more than I expect - I haven't made a video in years.

Agreed that everyone should be properly paid, but my view would be that someone who's getting covered in goo is doing more and harder work than someone who's staying nice and clean and dry. Wearing full outfits that are drenched in custard or covered in mud, or even just soaking wet, takes effort and energy. Were I to pay the same for all-clean as for covered in mess, I'd expect there to be resentment from those getting messy at a perception of unfairness. If the roles were reversed and I was the model, I'd expect to be paid more for getting messy than for walking about clean.

In the same vein, we pay more for nude work, or kinky scenes with deliberate sustained sexual touching, than for mainline PG ones. More and harder or more explicit work, more pay.

Very interesting... I'd thought there might be two sides to this particular coin.

Personally I kind of line up with DMO on this. Extra work should garner extra Compensation.

Modeling is definitely work (and should be compensated appropriately), but modeling in mess is assuredly a step above and beyond even that. -- Just my two cents.

Regardless of opinion, anyone producing content (respectfully and above board - past or present) gets my respect in return. It's so much harder than anyone who hasn't tried to do so, thinks it is.

Especially so, once you take marketing to the masses and dealing with the vocal locals into account. (Read as: The UMD Peanut Gallery)

I'm always a fan of one girl staying clean while the other one gets covered. Always adds to the humiliation aspect to me!