Some years ago I watched an old Anglefan clip. I do not have it now and don't remember its name or even who was in it. However, there was one disturbing thing about the clip that has stuck with me. At the end of the video, the model asks if the camera is off, and someone replies "Yeah, it's off" or similar, at which point she takes off her messy dress and goes... at least topless? Maybe nude?

It struck me as possible that this meant the model was being tricked into thinking the cameras were no longer rolling and was filmed topless (or naked?) without her consent. That seems like something that shouldn't be acceptable. Given recent events here I thought I would perhaps ask if anyone else can confirm that this happened/give more detail on what clip it was and what was going on, and if this indeed happened what should be done about it?

Apologies for the lack of detail but this occurred several years ago.

There have been several questions in the past about some of the behavior from Angelfan. From questions about dealings with models, to people noticing models being ejaculated on without their knowledge. As I recall the incidents were discussed. One of the incidents was explained as being requested in a custom. There were questions around that really being the case, but as no one had evidence it was he said she said.

Please bring evidence that it was not part of a custom, or that the model did not know when posing situations like this. Not saying that it didn't happen or that it was right. If it did happen and if the model did not know and it was allowed to be sold that is absolutely inexcusable. With the recent events the person came in with evidence when making their accusations.

Maybe don't make accusations unless you are sure?

Whilst I agree with zozotown that it is best to present these findings with evidence I think it's important as a community that issues such as these are hashed out in a public forum to keep visibility for everyone and ensure that IF anything happens that people aren't afraid to speak out about them.

It is worth noting that this is currently only an allegation with no evidence and therefore should be treated with care and sensitivity.

If anyone has information then please feel free to add to the thread and/or share details with site admins to allow them to investigate. If you don't have any evidence then I would suggest not adding to the hearsay.

I sincerely hope this is just a misunderstanding and that nothing of this sort happened to any models with any producers. Models often put themselves in compromising situations for shoots and they should never be made to feel uncomfortable or unsafe.

It seems there is always shady shit going on with Anglefan.

Agreed, there is a pattern. When info came out about how he treated my favorite model ever, I knew I would never purchase anything from that producer. I had also had a interaction via some kind of private messages (UMD? Email?) early on where some things were said about models that left a bad taste in my mouth.

Pattern or no pattern, admins have already confirmed that every time this comes to light there is no evidence presented. If you have evidence then please provide this to both the authorities and MM. If not, then please let's keep this as a reminder of the allegations but remember that they are JUST THAT!
I agree that awareness should be raised but to keep rehashing the same allegations is not healthy or helpful for the community when there could be (and I hope there aren't) other cases where there is evidence to support it. Admins have responded to the OP and given the details that everyone keeps referring to.
PLEASE stop keep re-hashing the same points everyone else has raised unless you have anything new to bring to the table. We don't need everyone boycotting a producer over hearsay to then potentially lose said producer from the community.
Note - this post is written on the basis that I have seen no evidence to substantiate any allegations and that I believe all members of this community should be treated as innocent until proven guilty. If evidence is presented or anyone is found guilty (as they were in the most recent case of this on UMD) then I fully support the law coming down harshly on them and them being removed from this site with immediate effect. As a former producer I will always sit on the side of the fence where models are made to feel safe and comfortable and are treated with respect - without them we would be left with virtually no content

I'm appalled by this thread. Nobody has contacted me via email, phone, or on UMD about anything related to this. Again, just more slander and false accusations.

Perhaps people who haven't been here long enough to remember certain discussions that were handled in a detailed fashion years ago shouldn't be angrily telling those who were there for them how to feel and react to those discussions.

Patrons have a right to make up their mind about any producer, and decide whether to support them or not. Other producers chiming in and telling everyone to shut up is totally against a spirit where the members of the community think for themselves. Sure you can say it, but excuse us if we think you aren't fully informed on past events, and if we don't let your concern for their being fewer producers guilt us into spending money where we don't wish to.

Do you still have any of these emails?

Looking back on my records it seems that I saw this in 2017, but I do not have the name of the video and it might have been a clip from earlier than that.

It is certainly possible I am not remembering the details correctly -- I wish I had taken more note of it. If anyone else would happen to remember or know about this I would appreciate hearing from them, as perhaps that will clear it up. It seems conceivable this was a misunderstanding and I am not remembering things properly or it was part of the script for the scene, though that was not the impression that I got.

Perhaps people should get their facts straight before attacking other users. I had another account here before this one and am well aware of the accusations that flew around in the past. Like this one there was no evidence to support that claim.

Also, if you had read my response properly you will see that I fully side with the protection of models and condone any wrongdoing. I haven't told anyone to shut up, in fact I have encouraged anyone with EVIDENCE to come forward. But in the absence of evidence slanderous remarks against anyone (producer or not) should not be seen as welcomed here.

To recap the fact pattern of this thread:
- OP has raised a serious allegation, but is unable to provide evidence
- a couple of producers and admin responded saying that people should take evidence to the relevant authorities and admins if they have any
- personally I have remained neutral in my position, merely suggesting that we should all reserve judgment until such time as a case is made which is supportable by evidence
- you have responded to criticise this and suggest that we are trying to shut the conversation down and make personal attacks

Nobody is doubting your version of events. I haven't seen the video myself and if I had then I'd probably raise similar concerns.- I agree this thread should be kept open for anyone who has more information to come forward. But PLEASE let this be constructive and not a witch hunt! We're all here to have fun and enjoy ourselves after all

Quoting again below:

"PLEASE stop keep re-hashing the same points everyone else has raised unless you have anything new to bring to the table. We don't need everyone boycotting a producer over hearsay to then potentially lose said producer from the community."

How does this not imply that we shouldn't bring up our own experiences and opinions? You mentioned the models, but including this makes you seem more concerned that someone might not spend their money with a producer than with letting people discuss their views and experiences.

We're talking many, many years ago. I didn't save it because I didn't have some big "gotcha" plan, it just helped to form my personal opinion. It's likely that a fair percent of the group here wouldn't be offended by what was said. But it was a checkmark for me, and it's something that started to form my opinion of the producer. It was sad for me, because I liked the quality of the productions, and was hoping to set up a custom at the time, although I had no idea exactly how that was going to work.

I've never been the one saying "here's the goods." I've been saying I personally have been noting a pattern of behavior that prevents me from spending money on these videos, although the productions are sometimes very tempting. And that's my right. The "evidence or it didn't happen" crowd ignores that fact that we can all make up our own minds about things, and an opinion formed over well more than a decade (I would say two decades, but I really can't remember exactly what year it was) doesn't have to stand up in court. We all have our own sense of things.

We need evidence in a courtroom, perhaps even for a UMD moderator's choices. But those who have experienced things can develop their own thoughts and feelings, and don't need to justify them to the rest of the community. All I said is that I saw a pattern, and that's my strong analysis and opinion of what I experienced. I don't need everyone or any of you to share that experience. But In have a right to say what I want to say about it, without being told to please be silent on the matter.

Honestly, since I am not providing evidence, I was quite content to let that one comment stand on its own. I really didn't like being told that we should "Please" not discuss a pattern we see unless we have evidence that would stand up in court. There's a difference between what is required for legal action and the basis for personal moral choices.

I'm not trying to get you to buy or not buy videos or change your opinion on Anglefan, or silence you at all. I was just wondering if you possibly still had the messages or could find them so that they could be sent to authorities as some type of proper evidence. This is coming from someone (myself) who is rather conflicted about Anglefan, liking the models and mess in his videos, and also knowing about the allegations against him and being cautious about buying from him.

Sorry if I came across as accusing you in any way.

No need for apologies, I was actually referring to another message. What was said in my response to queries about models was by no means illegal, it just saddened me. I never thought to show the message to anyone because I'm not out to get him.

This was before the other thing that upset me a bit, but as my opinion was already not so great before that other thing, I had been prejudiced (I think rightly) by personal experience when the other thing (15ish years ago as the fine print says) came up.

I am not out to get Anglefan, nor do I have any special evidence about anything. I was just saying that two things had already affected my opinion before this, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was true.

My salt was about another comment above not by you, which I read as "please only say anything if you have rock-solid evidence." And I'm not even angry at that person. I just find the idea that you can only discuss something if it could lead to some court conviction to be short-sighted and ignore personal choice.

So to reiterate, there's no evidence I want to bring to the table. Just an opinion formed over a long, long, period of time, that is reinforced at intervals by some discussion here.

We can all play nice together even if we don't all like one another. Indeed, we don't have to. It's part of being a community of adults.

I am concerned, as expressed above, about the wellbeing of the models, but I have no evidence to bring to the table. Just my own feelings, which I don't ask anyone else to accept as evidence of anything except where I stand.

So, there was no offense taken; we're good. I really just wanted to leave it at that one comment, which is subjective and not attempting to persuade anyone. I had to respond when I felt a comment was telling users that their opinions, presented as opinions (rather than facts) are unwelcome.

I agree with the points that have been made here about informed decisions. Rather than rely on memories of things that happened, here are the original threads.

Page 1
https://web.archive.org/web/20130515165509/http://umd.net/forums/recent_discussion

Page 2
https://web.archive.org/web/20101213002626/http://umd.net/forums/recent_discussion?start=20

Page 3
https://web.archive.org/web/20101214044006/http://umd.net/forums/recent_discussion?start=40

Page 4
https://web.archive.org/web/20101214050624/http://umd.net/forums/recent_discussion?start=60

Page 5
https://web.archive.org/web/20101214043643/http://umd.net/forums/recent_discussion?start=80

Page 6
https://web.archive.org/web/20130515142828/http://umd.net/forums/idtitle/recent_discussion?start=100

Page 7
https://web.archive.org/web/20130515152112/http://umd.net/forums/idtitle/recent_discussion?start=120

To my knowledge, these pages are some of the larger discussions about all things Angelfan. Hopefully this post will help those who were not here at the time with some context as well as those who were who may be doubting their memories.

EVERYONE should raise their concerns - at no point have I suggested otherwise. I just believe there is a right and wrong way to do so. If you have evidence (emails/video links/UMD messages etc - in this example the scene title would have been great help to settle this debate once and for all). Currently there is nothing but hearsay based on one person's recollection of a video from 5 years ago. ALL issues should be brought to the table no matter how long ago they may have happened.

As for your "implied interpretations" of my responses - I don't think sitting on the fence is or should ever be something that someone is called out for. It seems you have some kind of personal vendetta against Anglefan. All I have tried to do with this thread is keep a balanced opinion and ensure that users reserve judgment until they have the facts - which currently there are no "facts" only hearsay. I can only apologise if you misinterpreted my balanced opinion and reservation of judgment for "supporting" the producers

Gracias!

Wonder why this thread got buried.

I have a copy of an Anglefan Scene where near the end the model asks if they have finished.
The cameraman says "That's all"
The model says "Can you just turn your cameras off while I take this dress off".
Shortly afterwards you hear a beep suggesting one camera was turned off

There is then about 1 minute more footage where the model removes her dress & wipes herself down. She is topless but wearing a thong.

During this time - while the model is facing away from the camera - the camera is panned and angled to follow and zoom in or her before she turns around and shortly afterwards leaves the room.

Maybe this is the scene of concern.

That sounds like the clip in question. Can you post that clip?

In response to the email and IP information, as far as I could see it was information posted by a mod. You can't click on profiles and get the IP information and what not. No need to remove the pages from archive.org.

That would effectively be piracy.
Happy to take a steer from MM on this

I really don't want to stir the pot, and I will start by saying that I don't know anything about the situation either when it first broke, or now.

I do however think that given the industry, the concept of having to provide evidence to prove that it was non-consensual, rather than the other way around, is morally wrong.

Consent should be forthcoming and whilst some people do have voyeristic kinks, it should still be made clear either at the start or end of the video that the model was aware of what was going on.

I think coriander has every right to question whether or not someone has been taken advantage of and as noted by the admins, not hosting the content out of due diligance is a good approach.

(Note I am not making comment on how this issue has been raised, legality, whether it should be raised again etc.)

Can you at least give the name of the video/volume?

That might not be piracy. If I remember correctly clips under like 5 minutes are considered ok under the fair use statues.

Here is the FAQ part:
How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See, Fair Use Index, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians.

Link
https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#:~:text=Under%20the%20fair%20use%20doctrine,news%20reporting%2C%20and%20scholarly%20reports.

Given the seriousness of the allegations, and yes, filming your model nude or topless without her consent is THAT serious, I think the last minute or so of the scene in question doesn't quite fall under the umbrella of "giving content out for free". I have previews longer than the length we're talking about. It would also be nice to put this particular issue to bed once and for all but then again, who knows

Comments all make sense but would appreciate input from MM please

Thanks.