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"Sad times!!!"
Love you, too
Nothing like finding out that you are one of the two most pirated producers!
On the one hand it is good to know people like our work so much that it is so pirated, on the other, over the last few years, we have suffered from a loss of profit.
Was it something we did wrong, have people got bored of us?
No, why should people pay if they don't have to? So sites we do like YCDTOTI, TopGunge etc, are likely to not make a return, what is the point in us producing anything for a loss? People obviously like our media, otherwise it wouldn't be so widely shared, but at what cost? Well, if it gets worse, we will not be able to produce anything anymore.
So if you like it, please pay for it so that the media you like to see so much can continue to be produced!
On the one hand it is good to know people like our work so much that it is so pirated, on the other, over the last few years, we have suffered from a loss of profit.
Was it something we did wrong, have people got bored of us?
No, why should people pay if they don't have to? So sites we do like YCDTOTI, TopGunge etc, are likely to not make a return, what is the point in us producing anything for a loss? People obviously like our media, otherwise it wouldn't be so widely shared, but at what cost? Well, if it gets worse, we will not be able to produce anything anymore.
So if you like it, please pay for it so that the media you like to see so much can continue to be produced!
Ummmm Leon your signed in as me
I know how it feels. I was in your boat, Im sure yours is bigger than mine but even on a small scale it gets under your skin. Lets maroon these ships and just get muddy.... But I really am sorry to hear this. 
:ahahah:
:ahahah:If you're not dirty, whats the point
I don't pirate or hang out with those who do, but I was completely unaware your sites were that heavily pirated. Sometimes on youtube, you see quite a lot of Angelfan's work. After that I'd say Piefightgirls would be the next most common.
What makes you think your work is that heavily pirated? Also, while I do own some of the YCDToI stuff, and I didn't think it was that pricey, often times piracy is the result of the seller marking their prices too high (also, I'm fabulously wealthy and handsome, so for me a $15 video isn't as big a deal as it might be for someone less affluent and good looking). A lower price point might increase sales and decrease piracy, especially for older videos that have been around for awhile. I might suggest you play around with that before throwing in the towel.
If your sales are simply declining, I wouldn't immediately write that off the pirates. There are more producers and the market overall is only so strong.
What makes you think your work is that heavily pirated? Also, while I do own some of the YCDToI stuff, and I didn't think it was that pricey, often times piracy is the result of the seller marking their prices too high (also, I'm fabulously wealthy and handsome, so for me a $15 video isn't as big a deal as it might be for someone less affluent and good looking). A lower price point might increase sales and decrease piracy, especially for older videos that have been around for awhile. I might suggest you play around with that before throwing in the towel.
If your sales are simply declining, I wouldn't immediately write that off the pirates. There are more producers and the market overall is only so strong.
Since using Steam I haven't pirated any games.
Since using Spotify I haven't pirated any music.
Both of those provide me with a better service than downloading from torrents or suchlike do.
If I download a movie that I wouldn't have bought then there's no financial loss to anyone despite what the anti-piracy brigade try and claim.
If there was a Spotify for movies and TV then I'd be willing to pay for them, I'm well aware there are various companies like Netflix but what they offer isn't good enough.
The answer to reducing piracy is to offer a better option. If someone downloads from pay sites then the download is only available for a short time and that's crap.
I really like propermessy and topgunge but the unfortunate truth is producers have to keep up with how times change, evolve or die is a blunt way of putting it.
People using cassette tapes to record from the radio were going to kill the music industry we were told but that never happened. Same story with downloading MP3's, films, tv shows, etc etc etc. Those who keep up with new technology and what consumers want continue to do fine, the others drop off the radar and blame it on joe public.
It's an interesting statistic that you're one of the two most pirated producers given that there isn't any way to measure such things. But let's say that it true, it shows the demand for your work is there but with the price topgunge episodes are it's not much of a surprise that some people don't want to spend that much when they could get membership to a site that gives them so much more minutes of viewing for pound spent.
Sorry to be so negative but I'm saying all of this because I don't want you to stop producing your excellent work.
Since using Spotify I haven't pirated any music.
Both of those provide me with a better service than downloading from torrents or suchlike do.
If I download a movie that I wouldn't have bought then there's no financial loss to anyone despite what the anti-piracy brigade try and claim.
If there was a Spotify for movies and TV then I'd be willing to pay for them, I'm well aware there are various companies like Netflix but what they offer isn't good enough.
The answer to reducing piracy is to offer a better option. If someone downloads from pay sites then the download is only available for a short time and that's crap.
I really like propermessy and topgunge but the unfortunate truth is producers have to keep up with how times change, evolve or die is a blunt way of putting it.
People using cassette tapes to record from the radio were going to kill the music industry we were told but that never happened. Same story with downloading MP3's, films, tv shows, etc etc etc. Those who keep up with new technology and what consumers want continue to do fine, the others drop off the radar and blame it on joe public.
It's an interesting statistic that you're one of the two most pirated producers given that there isn't any way to measure such things. But let's say that it true, it shows the demand for your work is there but with the price topgunge episodes are it's not much of a surprise that some people don't want to spend that much when they could get membership to a site that gives them so much more minutes of viewing for pound spent.
Sorry to be so negative but I'm saying all of this because I don't want you to stop producing your excellent work.
That's nonsense. What you're saying, is that because you don't like the legitimate movie services available, and you have an easily accessible illegal alternative, it is therefore incumbent on the movie studios to provide you with an option your prefer? It's cliche, but think about that in non-internet terms; it's cool to rob someone because they don't do business the way you want them to, and you can get away with it?
On top of that, in this situation, the analogy is even faultier. This isn't a situation where there are directors, actors, etc getting paid to create something which is then distributed by a 3rd party. By pirating content right from producers, you're skipping the middleman and burning the creators themselves. Truly ballsy to then suggest that if they had a better system, you wouldn't have to rob them.
The "if I wouldn't buy it anyway then no harm no foul" argument sounds clever, ultimately boils down to a hugely flawed statement. You can't say you wouldn't buy something otherwise if you've already taken it for free... Skews the logic a bit.
I don't post much, but this kind of self-righteous justification in the face of something that is so obviously wrong tends to boil my blood. Consider how you'd feel if the shoe were on the other foot, then rationalize piracy.
On top of that, in this situation, the analogy is even faultier. This isn't a situation where there are directors, actors, etc getting paid to create something which is then distributed by a 3rd party. By pirating content right from producers, you're skipping the middleman and burning the creators themselves. Truly ballsy to then suggest that if they had a better system, you wouldn't have to rob them.
The "if I wouldn't buy it anyway then no harm no foul" argument sounds clever, ultimately boils down to a hugely flawed statement. You can't say you wouldn't buy something otherwise if you've already taken it for free... Skews the logic a bit.
I don't post much, but this kind of self-righteous justification in the face of something that is so obviously wrong tends to boil my blood. Consider how you'd feel if the shoe were on the other foot, then rationalize piracy.
I am new to actively participating here so sorry if I am speaking out of turn. All I know is we went through a couple hundred dollars having some sploshing fun last weekend, I can only imagine what a real producer spends on a big production like Leon does with Topgunge! If you are operating as a business, it does get to a point that it is cost prohibitive to make a show like that if you can't cover your costs. My 2 cent observation...
-JD
-JD
To come from another producers stand point when I was involved with Messymayhem, me and Bob would have discussions on price. Rule of thumb is $1 a minute. Or at least it was until the UMD store opened.
What you are looking at with a Topgunge is extremely good value for money. Try what Leon does with TG, you wouldn't come near with the amount of work, resources and time it takes to shoot one episode. I can tell you (because I've been behind the scenes in a couple) that it is an incredibly long amount of time to set up the shebang, then to shoot, then to clear it.
The product. put simply, is one of the best out there. Whenever something is good, for instance, Breaking Bad, then it rapidly becomes pirated.
No one does owt for nowt, and when you are spending a small fortune to shoot one episode, then you need to recouperate the funds. Gungemistress cost me and Iain a small fortune and well, it has flopped. A lot of fun, and a lot of hard work goes down the swanny and motivation to produce more is less, when it doesn't sell or some scab nabs it for free...
So you want high quality, well thought out and shot wam, keep buying folks. If you want a plethora of lo res, bath tub, poorly lit wam, keep going at mr Pirate.
Incidentally, is there any means of tracking the leeches?
What you are looking at with a Topgunge is extremely good value for money. Try what Leon does with TG, you wouldn't come near with the amount of work, resources and time it takes to shoot one episode. I can tell you (because I've been behind the scenes in a couple) that it is an incredibly long amount of time to set up the shebang, then to shoot, then to clear it.
The product. put simply, is one of the best out there. Whenever something is good, for instance, Breaking Bad, then it rapidly becomes pirated.
No one does owt for nowt, and when you are spending a small fortune to shoot one episode, then you need to recouperate the funds. Gungemistress cost me and Iain a small fortune and well, it has flopped. A lot of fun, and a lot of hard work goes down the swanny and motivation to produce more is less, when it doesn't sell or some scab nabs it for free...
So you want high quality, well thought out and shot wam, keep buying folks. If you want a plethora of lo res, bath tub, poorly lit wam, keep going at mr Pirate.
Incidentally, is there any means of tracking the leeches?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. When the service available from legit sources offer me a better service than I can get from downloading movies and tv then I'll use them. It's as simple as that. Your blood boiling isn't going to change anything, rather than raging at those who want a better service, put that effort into making a service that offers people what they want.
You've chosen to not comment on what I've said about Steam and Spotify offering good services and so I use those rather than downloading music.
Downloading something isn't robbery, you can continue to insist that it is or you can find ways to offer people a better alternative. If you steal a DVD or whatever from a shop then that shop has lost that physical object. If you download a movie then nobody has lost anything, everyone who wants to buy it still can and you downloading it hasn't had any effect on that at all.
Most films I download don't get watched, I get however far into them and they're crap so I just delete them. If I start listening to an album on Spotify and don't like it then that's no big deal, if I'd bought a CD and then found it to be crap then I'd be pissed off.
I've found new artists that I like having pirated their music and have gone to see them live, that wouldn't have happened if I didn't download their music from wherever.
I have bought things after downloading them for free. Lots of games that are available on Steam that I play are games I've previously pirated but the system that Steam offers is far better than the piracy option so I now use Steam.
I'm mates with various people who work in the music industry and they're not in the slightest bit bothered about people pirating music from artists on their label because they understand how things are changing and they also understand the benefits from piracy. You're quite welcome to say there aren't any benefits but by saying that you'll just be showing that it's something you don't understand.
Ranting, raving, getting p*ssed off and your blood boiling isn't going to change anything so it's a waste of your time.
If someone finds a topgunge episode to download and they like it, what's to say they won't then visit the topgunge site and buy other episodes or will click from topgunge onto some of the other moomin sites and purchase content from those sites. The people downloading topgunge episodes might be people who've already bought them but have since lost the files so not wanting to buy them again are just downloading something that they've already bought. I'm aware that these scenarios are unlikely but they're by no means impossible. I've certainly looked for places to download some of the content I've purchased but have lost over time.
It all comes back to the phrase 'evolve or die'. You might not like it but that's the reality.
If one producer stops production then that gap is filled by the multiple others who start production that day.
Meh, it makes no difference to me what producers do or don't do. tThere are loads of others out there, some of whom will see what has been the downfall of other producers and will avoid making the same mistakes they did.
Anyway, at this point I'm out. I've had my say, I've pointed out some cold hard truths, if anyone wants to take them on board is entirely up to them. I'll be disappointed if the moomin empire closes down but it'd be naive for anyone to think that their business will continue ad infinitum without needing to make changes over time.
You've chosen to not comment on what I've said about Steam and Spotify offering good services and so I use those rather than downloading music.
Downloading something isn't robbery, you can continue to insist that it is or you can find ways to offer people a better alternative. If you steal a DVD or whatever from a shop then that shop has lost that physical object. If you download a movie then nobody has lost anything, everyone who wants to buy it still can and you downloading it hasn't had any effect on that at all.
Most films I download don't get watched, I get however far into them and they're crap so I just delete them. If I start listening to an album on Spotify and don't like it then that's no big deal, if I'd bought a CD and then found it to be crap then I'd be pissed off.
I've found new artists that I like having pirated their music and have gone to see them live, that wouldn't have happened if I didn't download their music from wherever.
I have bought things after downloading them for free. Lots of games that are available on Steam that I play are games I've previously pirated but the system that Steam offers is far better than the piracy option so I now use Steam.
I'm mates with various people who work in the music industry and they're not in the slightest bit bothered about people pirating music from artists on their label because they understand how things are changing and they also understand the benefits from piracy. You're quite welcome to say there aren't any benefits but by saying that you'll just be showing that it's something you don't understand.
Ranting, raving, getting p*ssed off and your blood boiling isn't going to change anything so it's a waste of your time.
If someone finds a topgunge episode to download and they like it, what's to say they won't then visit the topgunge site and buy other episodes or will click from topgunge onto some of the other moomin sites and purchase content from those sites. The people downloading topgunge episodes might be people who've already bought them but have since lost the files so not wanting to buy them again are just downloading something that they've already bought. I'm aware that these scenarios are unlikely but they're by no means impossible. I've certainly looked for places to download some of the content I've purchased but have lost over time.
It all comes back to the phrase 'evolve or die'. You might not like it but that's the reality.
If one producer stops production then that gap is filled by the multiple others who start production that day.
Meh, it makes no difference to me what producers do or don't do. tThere are loads of others out there, some of whom will see what has been the downfall of other producers and will avoid making the same mistakes they did.
Anyway, at this point I'm out. I've had my say, I've pointed out some cold hard truths, if anyone wants to take them on board is entirely up to them. I'll be disappointed if the moomin empire closes down but it'd be naive for anyone to think that their business will continue ad infinitum without needing to make changes over time.
I can understand why Gungemistress flopped, it just isn't what the Brand is about. Dave and Leons brand mostly falls into the Classic gunge gameshow type which not alot of people are doing. There is a market for that. Thats why GTG is doing well. It is only WAM I am into.
Where as Gungemistress is more Fetish focused. Most WAM is focused on that. More competition
Where as Gungemistress is more Fetish focused. Most WAM is focused on that. More competition
Philippa Forrester Found
gungetime said: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. When the service available from legit sources offer me a better service than I can get from downloading movies and tv then I'll use them. It's as simple as that. Your blood boiling isn't going to change anything, rather than raging at those who want a better service, put that effort into making a service that offers people what they want.
You've chosen to not comment on what I've said about Steam and Spotify offering good services and so I use those rather than downloading music.
Downloading something isn't robbery, you can continue to insist that it is or you can find ways to offer people a better alternative. If you steal a DVD or whatever from a shop then that shop has lost that physical object. If you download a movie then nobody has lost anything, everyone who wants to buy it still can and you downloading it hasn't had any effect on that at all.
Most films I download don't get watched, I get however far into them and they're crap so I just delete them. If I start listening to an album on Spotify and don't like it then that's no big deal, if I'd bought a CD and then found it to be crap then I'd be pissed off.
I've found new artists that I like having pirated their music and have gone to see them live, that wouldn't have happened if I didn't download their music from wherever.
I have bought things after downloading them for free. Lots of games that are available on Steam that I play are games I've previously pirated but the system that Steam offers is far better than the piracy option so I now use Steam.
I'm mates with various people who work in the music industry and they're not in the slightest bit bothered about people pirating music from artists on their label because they understand how things are changing and they also understand the benefits from piracy. You're quite welcome to say there aren't any benefits but by saying that you'll just be showing that it's something you don't understand.
Ranting, raving, getting p*ssed off and your blood boiling isn't going to change anything so it's a waste of your time.
If someone finds a topgunge episode to download and they like it, what's to say they won't then visit the topgunge site and buy other episodes or will click from topgunge onto some of the other moomin sites and purchase content from those sites. The people downloading topgunge episodes might be people who've already bought them but have since lost the files so not wanting to buy them again are just downloading something that they've already bought. I'm aware that these scenarios are unlikely but they're by no means impossible. I've certainly looked for places to download some of the content I've purchased but have lost over time.
It all comes back to the phrase 'evolve or die'. You might not like it but that's the reality.
If one producer stops production then that gap is filled by the multiple others who start production that day.
Meh, it makes no difference to me what producers do or don't do. tThere are loads of others out there, some of whom will see what has been the downfall of other producers and will avoid making the same mistakes they did.
Anyway, at this point I'm out. I've had my say, I've pointed out some cold hard truths, if anyone wants to take them on board is entirely up to them. I'll be disappointed if the moomin empire closes down but it'd be naive for anyone to think that their business will continue ad infinitum without needing to make changes over time.
You've chosen to not comment on what I've said about Steam and Spotify offering good services and so I use those rather than downloading music.
Downloading something isn't robbery, you can continue to insist that it is or you can find ways to offer people a better alternative. If you steal a DVD or whatever from a shop then that shop has lost that physical object. If you download a movie then nobody has lost anything, everyone who wants to buy it still can and you downloading it hasn't had any effect on that at all.
Most films I download don't get watched, I get however far into them and they're crap so I just delete them. If I start listening to an album on Spotify and don't like it then that's no big deal, if I'd bought a CD and then found it to be crap then I'd be pissed off.
I've found new artists that I like having pirated their music and have gone to see them live, that wouldn't have happened if I didn't download their music from wherever.
I have bought things after downloading them for free. Lots of games that are available on Steam that I play are games I've previously pirated but the system that Steam offers is far better than the piracy option so I now use Steam.
I'm mates with various people who work in the music industry and they're not in the slightest bit bothered about people pirating music from artists on their label because they understand how things are changing and they also understand the benefits from piracy. You're quite welcome to say there aren't any benefits but by saying that you'll just be showing that it's something you don't understand.
Ranting, raving, getting p*ssed off and your blood boiling isn't going to change anything so it's a waste of your time.
If someone finds a topgunge episode to download and they like it, what's to say they won't then visit the topgunge site and buy other episodes or will click from topgunge onto some of the other moomin sites and purchase content from those sites. The people downloading topgunge episodes might be people who've already bought them but have since lost the files so not wanting to buy them again are just downloading something that they've already bought. I'm aware that these scenarios are unlikely but they're by no means impossible. I've certainly looked for places to download some of the content I've purchased but have lost over time.
It all comes back to the phrase 'evolve or die'. You might not like it but that's the reality.
If one producer stops production then that gap is filled by the multiple others who start production that day.
Meh, it makes no difference to me what producers do or don't do. tThere are loads of others out there, some of whom will see what has been the downfall of other producers and will avoid making the same mistakes they did.
Anyway, at this point I'm out. I've had my say, I've pointed out some cold hard truths, if anyone wants to take them on board is entirely up to them. I'll be disappointed if the moomin empire closes down but it'd be naive for anyone to think that their business will continue ad infinitum without needing to make changes over time.
It is robbery, plain and simple, that statement "It isn't robbery" does annoy, it is a product that was made by someone to be sold and people are getting it for free against the wishes of the person who produced it, how is that not robbery? Of course it is! But isn't that the same old debate over and over again?
You listed two of the biggest streaming services there is, problem is, try and get our media on to one of those sites or any of the big ones, they get knocked off for being adult.
You try and set up a streaming site, just not possible, not without another more mainstream service to tag it onto. Perhaps give it away for free with advertising revenue, no, wait, again, never going to work, not enough add revenue.
So there is no simple answer or better way to sell our media, the market isn't big enough for other options.
Incidentally, I was talking about mostwam media, which isn't expensive anyway, $5 for a 10 minute scene and thousands of pictures, cheaper than most other producers for the product received.
But when you're talking our whole site, thousands of updates, out there for free, who would bother buying?
I do feel very warm to those that do still pay and keep us producing, a massive thanks to those people, but feel equally let down and disappointed by those who have chose to watch for free and have stopped buying, no one told me about this, I found the media loads of it. Been spending the entire last 24 hours issuing take down notices.
Back to my earlier point, the situation is, please buy what people produce rather than illegally downloading/watching it or it will simply cease to be made. Don't think I was being nasty or harsh in that statement. That is the way it is.
And, yes, the damage IS being done by piracy.
There is no need to defend what is being done, everyone has justifications they can say for it, just want people to think before they do it. Not threatening people or getting nasty, just saying.
The amount of content and number of views, the other one is Allwam.
BUT, there is content from a lot of producers, any producer please feel free to ask by PM, for obvious reason, I'm not going to post links.
BUT, there is content from a lot of producers, any producer please feel free to ask by PM, for obvious reason, I'm not going to post links.
As Mr Moomin is being entirely reasonable I'm renegading on my earlier "I'm ooot"
Robbery is "dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it." which isn't quite what's happening when someone pirates your pictures or videos. That's intellectual property crimes which are a completely different kettle of fish and people pirating your work ( as well as those distributing it) are committing copyright offences. Any type of litigation is a legal minefield and that's when the big holywood names are doing it.
I'm not suggesting that your work could or should be on one of the streaming sites, it was just an example of the music industry finding ways to beat pirates. I don't have any such suggestions for a similar wam content distribution but where there's a will there's always a way (as pirates have a habit of proving but that's going off on a tangent).
It's disappointing if people are pirating the mostwam content cos as you say that's not so pricey, the £9.99 a month I spend on Spotify would get me more than two downloads from your download store and they last forever whereas music I listen to on Spotify is only accessible whilst I continue with the subscription payments.
You probably won't believe me but I purchase your work and will continue to. I don't lose much sleep over downloading whatever film I want to watch (most of which are crap and get deleted rather than watched to the end) but pirating mostwam stuff is pretty tight fisted!
As well as the takedown notices, is there any chance of being exploring the possibility of tracing where (well, who) it's originating from? With piracy of main stream films etc, it's all traceable to a small number of sources so I'd have thought the piracy of wam fetish content will be from an even smaller number of sources.
If the sites you're sending take down notices to have advertising where some of the revenue goes to the person whose 'page' it is, in a youtube style, then the perpetrators are traceable that way. I wouldn't be so sure about the long term effectiveness of sending take down notice after take down notice cos the people putting it online for people to pirate will just do so again and again, depending on how smart they are it'd be relatively easy to automate the whole thing. It depends on how determined the providers of the pirated content are which is anyones guess.
Solutions? Bleh, there must be something that's a viable solution...:-S
It all comes back to the 'evolve or die' bluntness but the million dollar question is how to evolve. Short of carefully analysing your sales and customers looking for patterns of who buys what against when your work gets put on the pirate sites, I've not got any ideas at the moment. I suspect from your point of view it will come back to the amount of time involved, if you end up spending loads of time 'policing' pirate sites and trying to track down who it originates from then there's a point where you'll get bored as it's not worth your while.
Bleh
edit: It might be worth removing the name of the other producer from your above post, simply because the more info someone has, the easier it is to find the site offering the pirated content.
Robbery is "dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it." which isn't quite what's happening when someone pirates your pictures or videos. That's intellectual property crimes which are a completely different kettle of fish and people pirating your work ( as well as those distributing it) are committing copyright offences. Any type of litigation is a legal minefield and that's when the big holywood names are doing it.
I'm not suggesting that your work could or should be on one of the streaming sites, it was just an example of the music industry finding ways to beat pirates. I don't have any such suggestions for a similar wam content distribution but where there's a will there's always a way (as pirates have a habit of proving but that's going off on a tangent).
It's disappointing if people are pirating the mostwam content cos as you say that's not so pricey, the £9.99 a month I spend on Spotify would get me more than two downloads from your download store and they last forever whereas music I listen to on Spotify is only accessible whilst I continue with the subscription payments.
You probably won't believe me but I purchase your work and will continue to. I don't lose much sleep over downloading whatever film I want to watch (most of which are crap and get deleted rather than watched to the end) but pirating mostwam stuff is pretty tight fisted!
As well as the takedown notices, is there any chance of being exploring the possibility of tracing where (well, who) it's originating from? With piracy of main stream films etc, it's all traceable to a small number of sources so I'd have thought the piracy of wam fetish content will be from an even smaller number of sources.
If the sites you're sending take down notices to have advertising where some of the revenue goes to the person whose 'page' it is, in a youtube style, then the perpetrators are traceable that way. I wouldn't be so sure about the long term effectiveness of sending take down notice after take down notice cos the people putting it online for people to pirate will just do so again and again, depending on how smart they are it'd be relatively easy to automate the whole thing. It depends on how determined the providers of the pirated content are which is anyones guess.
Solutions? Bleh, there must be something that's a viable solution...:-S
It all comes back to the 'evolve or die' bluntness but the million dollar question is how to evolve. Short of carefully analysing your sales and customers looking for patterns of who buys what against when your work gets put on the pirate sites, I've not got any ideas at the moment. I suspect from your point of view it will come back to the amount of time involved, if you end up spending loads of time 'policing' pirate sites and trying to track down who it originates from then there's a point where you'll get bored as it's not worth your while.
Bleh
edit: It might be worth removing the name of the other producer from your above post, simply because the more info someone has, the easier it is to find the site offering the pirated content.
gungetime said: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
etc.
Gungetime, you seem to have a lot of justifications for stealing media and not thinking it's stealing.
The main one seems to be, "If I don't consider it stealing, then it's not stealing".
Taking something that's for sale and not paying for it, no matter how you do it, is stealing!
You say it's because it's not physical media. An awful lot of people who rigged ways of getting free cable TV and tried to justify it ended up getting arrested. You don't get arrested if it's not illegal!
And saying that producers are behind the times and if they did things differently is like saying (regarding a store), "Well, if they had better security, I wouldn't have stolen it." That makes no sense.
What makes even less sense is the idea that you only steal stuff you wouldn't buy anyway. Then you either don't need or want it; otherwise you should pay for it. So if you steal something and get arrested, your argument is, "It's okay, I wasn't going to use it, anyway." ?? That's ridiculous!
You can't justify an argument by using the argument to justify it!
Meh, it makes no difference to me what producers do or don't do. There are loads of others out there, some of whom will see what has been the downfall of other producers and will avoid making the same mistakes they did. .... I've had my say, I've pointed out some cold hard truths, if anyone wants to take them on board is entirely up to them. I'll be disappointed if the moomin empire closes down but it'd be naive for anyone to think that their business will continue ad infinitum without needing to make changes over time.
That is a pretty sad and arrogant attitude. "It doesn't make any difference to me if a producer closes down, there are loads of others out there". (I paraphrased the attitude, not the exact words.) EVERY producer does things in their own unique way, and appeals to different people, who would certainly miss it if that producer closed down.
You say that you've "pointed out some cold hard truths". All you've done is express your warped and morally bankrupt opinion.
And the Moomins have been very prolific on here, with several different sites aimed at different people, for more than 15 years! It wasn't the empire that it is now, but Leon was producing and posting pics (and vids, I believe) back when I first got on the net in 1999. He and his ladies do excellent work, with various scenerios, lots of different "looks" in their models, and a variety of mess substances.
I, for one, LOVE their stuff, and I know many others do, too!
:lovestruck: Leon, I know that there are practicalities of making a profit in order to survive, but please don't let people like Gungetime, or the asshats who pirate your stuff, cause you to close down. I would really miss all of your work!
Norman
** EDIT** Gungetime, you made your last post while I was typing mine. I'm not sure what has changed in this last post, but unlike the first several, it sounds like you're trying to help in some ambiguous way. If something I've said in my post shows a misunderstanding of your intent, I apologize. I went by what you actually said in your first several posts.
Norman Mabeld said: Gungetime, you seem to have a lot of justifications for stealing media and not thinking it's stealing.
The main one seems to be, "If I don't consider it stealing, then it's not stealing".
Taking something that's for sale and not paying for it, no matter how you do it, is stealing!
The main one seems to be, "If I don't consider it stealing, then it's not stealing".
Taking something that's for sale and not paying for it, no matter how you do it, is stealing!
It's nothing to do with what I do or don't consider stealing, I'm going by the definition of theft. That's something to discuss with the CPS if you don't agree with it.
Norman Mabeld said:You say it's because it's not physical media. An awful lot of people who rigged ways of getting free cable TV and tried to justify it ended up getting arrested. You don't get arrested if it's not illegal!
Free cable TV isn't theft, it's fraud.
Norman Mabeld said:And saying that producers are behind the times and if they did things differently is like saying (regarding a store), "Well, if they had better security, I wouldn't have stolen it." That makes no sense.
That's not what I'm saying at all. It's nothing to do with the security involved, it's to do with giving customers a better option than piracy. It's incredibly easy to download whatever films or music takes your fancy but it's hassle then synchronising that with your different devices, getting a good quality pirated version isn't as completely straight forward and can be a case of trial and error, etc etc etc.
Norman Mabeld said:What makes even less sense is the idea that you only steal stuff you wouldn't buy anyway. Then you either don't need or want it; otherwise you should pay for it. So if you steal something and get arrested, your argument is, "It's okay, I wasn't going to use it, anyway." ?? That's ridiculous!
By definition, downloading something isn't stealing. Comparing stealing items from shops or wherever else to downloading something is never going to work, they're different offences. If you steal from a shop you have permanently deprived the owner of that item, if you download something no physical item has been taken. They're considered different offences because of how different they are.
Norman Mabeld said:
That is a pretty sad and arrogant attitude. "It doesn't make any difference to me if a producer closes down, there are loads of others out there". (I paraphrased the attitude, not the exact words.) EVERY producer does things in their own unique way, and appeals to different people, who would certainly miss it if that producer closed down.
You say that you've "pointed out some cold hard truths". All you've done is express your warped and morally bankrupt opinion.
Meh, it makes no difference to me what producers do or don't do. There are loads of others out there, some of whom will see what has been the downfall of other producers and will avoid making the same mistakes they did. .... I've had my say, I've pointed out some cold hard truths, if anyone wants to take them on board is entirely up to them. I'll be disappointed if the moomin empire closes down but it'd be naive for anyone to think that their business will continue ad infinitum without needing to make changes over time.
That is a pretty sad and arrogant attitude. "It doesn't make any difference to me if a producer closes down, there are loads of others out there". (I paraphrased the attitude, not the exact words.) EVERY producer does things in their own unique way, and appeals to different people, who would certainly miss it if that producer closed down.
You say that you've "pointed out some cold hard truths". All you've done is express your warped and morally bankrupt opinion.
You're quite entitled to think that it's sad and arrogant, that doesn't stop it from being true.
My opinion is my opinion and your opinion is your opinion. Neither is right nor wrong, I haven't starting calling you names or saying that you're morally bankrupt so I'd appreciate it if you were able to do the same. Generally speak, when people resort to petty insults and suchlike, that's because they've run out of reasoned arguments.
Norman Mabeld said:And the Moomins have been very prolific on here, with several different sites aimed at different people, for more than 15 years! It wasn't the empire that it is now, but Leon was producing and posting pics (and vids, I believe) back when I first got on the net in 1999. He and his ladies do excellent work, with various scenerios, lots of different "looks" in their models, and a variety of mess substances.
I, for one, LOVE their stuff, and I know many others do, too! :lovestruck:
I, for one, LOVE their stuff, and I know many others do, too!
:lovestruck:I know and I completely agree, I've been a fan of their work since the late nineties as well.
Norman Mabeld said:Leon, I know that there are practicalities of making a profit in order to survive, but please don't let people like Gungetime, or the asshats who pirate your stuff, cause you to close down. I would really miss all of your work!
I don't see how anything I've said or done will cause him to close down.
Norman Mabeld said:** EDIT** Gungetime, you made your last post while I was typing mine. I'm not sure what has changed in this last post, but unlike the first several, it sounds like you're trying to help in some ambiguous way. If something I've said in my post shows a misunderstanding of your intent, I apologize. I went by what you actually said in your first several posts.
Mr Moomin engaged with a sensible reply, therefore I'm doing the same.
Hating piracy isn't going to make it go away, the best any producers (wam, tv, music, holywood, etc etc) can hope for is to turn those pirates into customers.
I don't think there's been a misunderstanding of my intent, simply that you don't agree with what I had to say.
It's pretty easy to track these pirate sites down, with the name of the other producer that Mr Moomin mentioned I've found a few offering lots of content for trade.
All these comments about being pirated, I don't wish to sound like I am instigating a fight here, but Topgunge put an entire episode on youtube themselves once. You more than likely didn't want to send the 'share the love' message to everyone, but perhaps that is one of the reasons why it is happening?
Jesus Christ, I'm appalled by some of the defensive remarks that it's ok. Yes, in my time I have downloaded MP3s and stuff like that...
But come on guys these producers are our own community! They are not some mega corp milking music artists off their royalties by paying them a paltry sum. This is not the blockbuster industry, where they get millions of profit one way or another.
Leon, very sorry to hear about your situation. Hope that this will not change your plans for the future. Do stick around!
But come on guys these producers are our own community! They are not some mega corp milking music artists off their royalties by paying them a paltry sum. This is not the blockbuster industry, where they get millions of profit one way or another.
Leon, very sorry to hear about your situation. Hope that this will not change your plans for the future. Do stick around!
I'm sorry to read you're suffering due to piracy, I've loved your work for many years and though I can't claim to be a regular customer I buy a few videos from time to time. I've always enjoyed them and I will continue to buy the odd one as time and funds permit.
Having said that, I'd be inclined to buy rather more if you had a different method of selling: bundles, short term sales, multi-purchase discounts, free older videos with certain purchases and the like have a tendency to encourage me to buy the work of other producers more than I otherwise would. If you were to do something like this I reckon you'd sell more and you'd certainly sell more to me.
As an example I'd really like to get several of the TopGunge episodes, including repurchasing the one I bought when it first came out and promptly lost to a hard disk failure, but I don't have any incentive to buy more than one at a time and even then maybe leave gaps. I keep putting off buying as, great though your videos are, I'm often tempted away by someone else having an offer when I know yours will (probably) be the same price next week.
As an aside I don't do piracy, but on reading your complaint that so much of your work is being pirated I thought I'd take a look for my self. After 20 minutes of searching I gave up, having found nothing other than clearly dishonest links alongside links back to your own trailers. Now as I don't do piracy I may have been looking in entirely the wrong place, using the wrong search terms and the rest but if I can't find it, it's quite likely others who look would have difficulty too so don't despair overly much. Equally when I used to do a little piracy, about 15 years ago now, I would more often than not later buy the stuff I'd downloaded so you could well find piracy is, at least in part, giving you a little free advertising.
Thank you for taking the time to produce such great material though, long may you continue at it and I will be buying some more soon!
Having said that, I'd be inclined to buy rather more if you had a different method of selling: bundles, short term sales, multi-purchase discounts, free older videos with certain purchases and the like have a tendency to encourage me to buy the work of other producers more than I otherwise would. If you were to do something like this I reckon you'd sell more and you'd certainly sell more to me.
As an example I'd really like to get several of the TopGunge episodes, including repurchasing the one I bought when it first came out and promptly lost to a hard disk failure, but I don't have any incentive to buy more than one at a time and even then maybe leave gaps. I keep putting off buying as, great though your videos are, I'm often tempted away by someone else having an offer when I know yours will (probably) be the same price next week.
As an aside I don't do piracy, but on reading your complaint that so much of your work is being pirated I thought I'd take a look for my self. After 20 minutes of searching I gave up, having found nothing other than clearly dishonest links alongside links back to your own trailers. Now as I don't do piracy I may have been looking in entirely the wrong place, using the wrong search terms and the rest but if I can't find it, it's quite likely others who look would have difficulty too so don't despair overly much. Equally when I used to do a little piracy, about 15 years ago now, I would more often than not later buy the stuff I'd downloaded so you could well find piracy is, at least in part, giving you a little free advertising.
Thank you for taking the time to produce such great material though, long may you continue at it and I will be buying some more soon!
BTS
Jonny said:
No one does owt for nowt, and when you are spending a small fortune to shoot one episode, then you need to recouperate the funds. Gungemistress cost me and Iain a small fortune and well, it has flopped. A lot of fun, and a lot of hard work goes down the swanny and motivation to produce more is less, when it doesn't sell or some scab nabs it for free...
No one does owt for nowt, and when you are spending a small fortune to shoot one episode, then you need to recouperate the funds. Gungemistress cost me and Iain a small fortune and well, it has flopped. A lot of fun, and a lot of hard work goes down the swanny and motivation to produce more is less, when it doesn't sell or some scab nabs it for free...
I'm sorry to hear that Gungemistress did not work out, I really like the content and have bought several videos.
Guess that explains why there has been no new updates in ages
I don't buy much, but I have bought off Leon (mostly Lisa stuff- she's my favourite) however, downloading stuff from illegal sites. is just like walking into HMV and walking out with a load of CD's under your arm. - It is stealing. How are we to expect low volume producers who are part our community to carry on if we steal their stuff. They probably don't make much money from them anyhow after expenses. Sticky Tara and Steve stopped a few weeks ago mainly because they were not covering costs. That may not be because of pirating but the effect is the same. If you are not prepared to buy now and then, you will soon find there is no-one to buy from.
Well, shit. That is a pity.
To me, the issue isn't so much with law or the philosophy about intellectual property as it is about respect. Leon has put in so much work into his sites, certainly since 2005 (when I started being a member--and have been ever since, on and off) and undoubtedly for several years before that. It's completely reasonable for him to ask for compensation for the time, supplies, models' fees, etc. that he puts in, in exchange for videos, and generally be in control of distribution.
It's totally fine if someone sees the price tag and decides not it's not worth it, but to take without buying shows frank disregard with how the producer wants his work to be presented and delivered.
To me, the issue isn't so much with law or the philosophy about intellectual property as it is about respect. Leon has put in so much work into his sites, certainly since 2005 (when I started being a member--and have been ever since, on and off) and undoubtedly for several years before that. It's completely reasonable for him to ask for compensation for the time, supplies, models' fees, etc. that he puts in, in exchange for videos, and generally be in control of distribution.
It's totally fine if someone sees the price tag and decides not it's not worth it, but to take without buying shows frank disregard with how the producer wants his work to be presented and delivered.
It all comes down to morality. If you think it's fine to take something for free rather than paying for it, that's your choice. Cost, ease, reasoning; nothing else is relevant. You are making a choice, and if you feel the need to strenuously justify it, maybe it's worth reconsidering.
Especially in a community like this, which is so small that producers and distributors are the same people, making that choice is damaging. It's the hard truth, whether or not you like to hear it. The multimillion-dollar music industry may write-off piracy as grassroots publicity, but that is not the case here. This is a niche market where every purchase matters, and whether you're posting things yourself or excusing piracy, you're complicit in damaging the community.
Great to say "evolve with the times," and if you're a mass media distributor, you can. But here? The alternatives are mailing out physical, copy-protected DVDs, or dumping everything online and asking for donations? Either way your left unable to produce anything new of any quality. This isn't lifting some movies from a big-box store, this is going to your neighborhood video store and cleaning them out. There's a reason you don't see too many local video stores anymore. It comes down to making a choice.
Not making any insinuations or personal attacks, but justifying piracy as a symptom of the times doesn't do anyone any good. Maybe calling it out as theft won't stop it, but it does less harm then shrugging at it. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. If you're going to make the choice to pirate, have the decency to own up to it, not couch it with narrow definitions and faulty analogies.
Especially in a community like this, which is so small that producers and distributors are the same people, making that choice is damaging. It's the hard truth, whether or not you like to hear it. The multimillion-dollar music industry may write-off piracy as grassroots publicity, but that is not the case here. This is a niche market where every purchase matters, and whether you're posting things yourself or excusing piracy, you're complicit in damaging the community.
Great to say "evolve with the times," and if you're a mass media distributor, you can. But here? The alternatives are mailing out physical, copy-protected DVDs, or dumping everything online and asking for donations? Either way your left unable to produce anything new of any quality. This isn't lifting some movies from a big-box store, this is going to your neighborhood video store and cleaning them out. There's a reason you don't see too many local video stores anymore. It comes down to making a choice.
Not making any insinuations or personal attacks, but justifying piracy as a symptom of the times doesn't do anyone any good. Maybe calling it out as theft won't stop it, but it does less harm then shrugging at it. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. If you're going to make the choice to pirate, have the decency to own up to it, not couch it with narrow definitions and faulty analogies.
gungetime said:
Downloading something isn't robbery, you can continue to insist that it is or you can find ways to offer people a better alternative. If you steal a DVD or whatever from a shop then that shop has lost that physical object. If you download a movie then nobody has lost anything, everyone who wants to buy it still can and you downloading it hasn't had any effect on that at all.
Downloading something isn't robbery, you can continue to insist that it is or you can find ways to offer people a better alternative. If you steal a DVD or whatever from a shop then that shop has lost that physical object. If you download a movie then nobody has lost anything, everyone who wants to buy it still can and you downloading it hasn't had any effect on that at all.
Yes it is robbery and it's shit-bags with that attitude that will cause producers to stop making videos. If you value something then don't steal it. If you want to see high quality HD wam videos then you should actually pay for them.
Honestly wam is one of the more costly and time consuming fetishes to produce. Before I started making wam videos I was warned by other fetish producers to not waste my time on this fetish. People told me the wam community expects the most but is willing to pay the least for videos. Out of everything I shoot wam brings in the least revenue for me but I do it because I enjoy it. However if I found out more people were stealing my videos than buying them I'd just go back to getting messy off film and start shooting fetish videos people are actually willing to pay for.
In part, gungetime is just echoing a point made fairly recently by the author of this site:
http://umd.net/forums/is_wam_community_in_a_slump?start=30#394063
Although in that thread we didn't have an actual pirate advocate making himself available for keelhauling
Arrrrrrrr! Ouch! That hurts! Arrrrr!! Ow! Arrrrrrr!!! Egads! YOW! Arrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
http://umd.net/forums/is_wam_community_in_a_slump?start=30#394063
Although in that thread we didn't have an actual pirate advocate making himself available for keelhauling
Arrrrrrrr! Ouch! That hurts! Arrrrr!! Ow! Arrrrrrr!!! Egads! YOW! Arrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
From my perspective any piracy opportunities are not something I would look for.
However, I am guilty of not being as interested in your recent work as of old.
I haven't bought anything lately yet I used to regularly.
For me I think more variety would get me back. Here are a few ideas:
Maybe some different outfits, some scripted shoots (suggested earlier in this thread), some clothes filling, some mild bondage (you handcuffed a model to a street lamp once), some mild male inclusion (Leon mud collecting with the girls was good), original ideas (Lisa on the elephant!), maybe a blindfolded sketch, more multi girl scenes, a shoot in real rain (Lisa's was great), a task based shoot (bury something in the mud), mix mud & wetlook by making a model crawl through the mud then swim in the estuary, reverse WAM (model starts in underwear/swimwear & has to put on clothes you've hidden in deep mud), vote based WAM (ask us what to do to whom), more risky shoots (Steph in the braless white dress), etc.
Most of these things have been done by you on your much missed variety sites, or by other producers. You won't please everyone all the time (although anything with white jeans would keep one member happy!). But for me this variety would mean there was bound to be enough videos of interest for me to rejoin your sites, even if the price was higher.
Whatever happens your videos have given me a great amount of pleasure and for that I am eternally grateful. I hope everything works out for you guys.
However, I am guilty of not being as interested in your recent work as of old.
I haven't bought anything lately yet I used to regularly.
For me I think more variety would get me back. Here are a few ideas:
Maybe some different outfits, some scripted shoots (suggested earlier in this thread), some clothes filling, some mild bondage (you handcuffed a model to a street lamp once), some mild male inclusion (Leon mud collecting with the girls was good), original ideas (Lisa on the elephant!), maybe a blindfolded sketch, more multi girl scenes, a shoot in real rain (Lisa's was great), a task based shoot (bury something in the mud), mix mud & wetlook by making a model crawl through the mud then swim in the estuary, reverse WAM (model starts in underwear/swimwear & has to put on clothes you've hidden in deep mud), vote based WAM (ask us what to do to whom), more risky shoots (Steph in the braless white dress), etc.
Most of these things have been done by you on your much missed variety sites, or by other producers. You won't please everyone all the time (although anything with white jeans would keep one member happy!). But for me this variety would mean there was bound to be enough videos of interest for me to rejoin your sites, even if the price was higher.
Whatever happens your videos have given me a great amount of pleasure and for that I am eternally grateful. I hope everything works out for you guys.
To expect a "Spotify of sploshing" is just absurd, realistically you just wouldn't get the advertising.
On the other hand, I think producers *do* need to club together to deal with piracy.... possibly it might even be worth making it a condition of advertising on this site, since some of the people I've notified about their work being uploaded to youtube were not awfully concerned (others, however, were very grateful for being told).
On the other hand, I think producers *do* need to club together to deal with piracy.... possibly it might even be worth making it a condition of advertising on this site, since some of the people I've notified about their work being uploaded to youtube were not awfully concerned (others, however, were very grateful for being told).
There is no expectation of a spotify of sploshing, as I've said several times it's just an example to show how the music industry find ways to beat pirates.
Calling it out as theft is a lie. By the definition of theft, downloading a pirate copy of something is not theft. Just because you want to call it theft doesn't mean that it is theft, the complete lack of knowledge by people trying to be vocal about piracy problems just gives pirates the upper hand. The more you go on about it being theft and about how you want to solve the problem of producers work being stolen, the less chance you actually have of finding any solutions to piracy problems. There is no theft so you're trying to find an answer to a problem which doesn't exist whilst you're not even on the right page about piracy problems so you've got f'all chance of solving that problem.
Gherdg, there are various other ways that the movie industry have made dents in piracy. For instance, DVD or Blueray screenes are very rare now and there are some fairly simple reasons why that's happened but I'm not entirely sure how simple it would be for implementing them in a relatively small industry like wam production. Evolving with the times means keeping up with pirates and outsmarting them as well as offering consumers a better alternative to piracy.
Smess, a piracy advocate making himself available for keelhauling? Pointing out the realities of piracy isn't advocating it, without people knowing and understanding those realities the producers have got a very small chance of doing anything effective to combat the piracy problem they're faced with. Oh, it also might interest you to know that as well as having a good knowledge of the piracy industry/underworld, I've also got experience with working successfully with anti piracy teams
I fully expect replies from people telling me that it is theft and how people not being willing to call it theft are part of the problem. Luckily I've got a bit of a thick skin so have no problems laughing off people who have little understand of what they're trying to talk about. If you're going to stand up on your soap box and start preaching, at least get a firm grasp of the facts of what you're preaching about.
Calling it out as theft is a lie. By the definition of theft, downloading a pirate copy of something is not theft. Just because you want to call it theft doesn't mean that it is theft, the complete lack of knowledge by people trying to be vocal about piracy problems just gives pirates the upper hand. The more you go on about it being theft and about how you want to solve the problem of producers work being stolen, the less chance you actually have of finding any solutions to piracy problems. There is no theft so you're trying to find an answer to a problem which doesn't exist whilst you're not even on the right page about piracy problems so you've got f'all chance of solving that problem.
Gherdg, there are various other ways that the movie industry have made dents in piracy. For instance, DVD or Blueray screenes are very rare now and there are some fairly simple reasons why that's happened but I'm not entirely sure how simple it would be for implementing them in a relatively small industry like wam production. Evolving with the times means keeping up with pirates and outsmarting them as well as offering consumers a better alternative to piracy.
Smess, a piracy advocate making himself available for keelhauling?
Pointing out the realities of piracy isn't advocating it, without people knowing and understanding those realities the producers have got a very small chance of doing anything effective to combat the piracy problem they're faced with. Oh, it also might interest you to know that as well as having a good knowledge of the piracy industry/underworld, I've also got experience with working successfully with anti piracy teams I fully expect replies from people telling me that it is theft and how people not being willing to call it theft are part of the problem. Luckily I've got a bit of a thick skin so have no problems laughing off people who have little understand of what they're trying to talk about. If you're going to stand up on your soap box and start preaching, at least get a firm grasp of the facts of what you're preaching about.
This conversation reminds me of conversations I've had with main-steam adult producers about all those free porn tube sites that have popped up over the years. Small time producers have seen their sales decline over the years (likely a combination of the poor economy in the US and an increase in free porn) and tend to blame free sites because of it. Larger companies will actually post their own content for free on those sites. I know because I found content of me on xhamster, thought it was pirated and contacted the website owners about it. They told me they put it up there because for every 300 views they get a new signup. Well that's great if your content is getting thousands of views and you get hundreds of new members from it.
What we need to remember here is that wam is not and will never likely be mainstream enough to benefit from being posted for free. It's easy to be on the outside saying "oh you guys just need a better business model" but the reality is the audience is very limited. There are things that I think would improve the experience of producers and customers on this site (like offering coupon codes to reward loyal customers) but those have been mentioned and never implemented.
And I do agree that as a community we should stick together and report piracy to producers. I have done so a few times when I have seen other people's videos posted on youtube, often without any response back so I don't know if other producers agree with me on that or not.
What we need to remember here is that wam is not and will never likely be mainstream enough to benefit from being posted for free. It's easy to be on the outside saying "oh you guys just need a better business model" but the reality is the audience is very limited. There are things that I think would improve the experience of producers and customers on this site (like offering coupon codes to reward loyal customers) but those have been mentioned and never implemented.
And I do agree that as a community we should stick together and report piracy to producers. I have done so a few times when I have seen other people's videos posted on youtube, often without any response back so I don't know if other producers agree with me on that or not.
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