|
|
|||
| forums: groups: | |||
|
"Men: consent vs implicit (accidental) threats"
Love you, too
Content warning: sexual assault.
This is related to another thread, but I wanted to make a separate post on a more general topic, regarding consent. I'm not an expert on feminism, but I've learned a few things (in conversations with women) which weren't obvious to me as a man, and this might be useful to other people.
Hypothetical scenario 1: I meet someone for a first date, then I walk her home, and she invites me in for a coffee. Is this a coded invitation for "Take me now!" or does it just mean "I'm enjoying our conversation, and I'd like to continue chatting for a bit longer"?
We then go into her kitchen, and she turns the kettle on. While we're waiting for it to boil, I make my move: I put my hand on her cheek, then lean in to kiss her on the lips, and she doesn't make any effort to pull away. That's consent, right? "No means no", but she didn't say no, so we're two adults doing something that we both want.
Hypothetical scenario 2: I go up to someone on the street and ask "Do you have any spare change?" The person turns around to look at me, and notices that I have a gun in my hand. I haven't actually threatened them, or even ordered them to give me money, I've just asked them. So, in theory they're totally free to say no, but in practice they'd probably say "Yes, here you go" because they don't want me to shoot them.
Now come back to the first scenario. I've followed this woman into her kitchen, so I'm standing between her and the doorway (blocking her escape route). I'm also bigger than her, and there's nobody else around to see what's going on. If I try to kiss her and she says "no", maybe I'd be fine with that, apologise profusely, and leave. Or maybe I'd be angry that she's led me on, playing games with me; after all, why did she invite me in if she wasn't interested? In that situation, she might choose to go along with the kiss, because she's afraid of physical violence if she says no. (I'm trying not to be too graphic here, but the same dilemma would apply if I wanted to have sex with her and she didn't want to have sex with me.)
Speaking for myself, I know for a fact that I would take no for an answer. However, the woman doesn't know that. (This is the concept of "Schrodinger's Rapist".)
That creates a problem: how do I know whether someone is really giving consent or whether they feel that they're under duress? My approach is to be explicit, i.e. I'll ask a question and then literally say "It's totally fine for you to say no" (before they answer). I'll also think about my positioning, e.g. I'll try not to stand between someone else and the doorway when I ask a question like this.
Moving away from hypothetical scenarios, here are a couple of real-life scenarios that I've been in, in case my choices are useful to anyone else.
* I was on a date in a pub, and we were taking it in turn to buy each round of drinks. At one point, the woman got up to go to the loo. I asked whether she'd like me to get the next round while she was gone (i.e. I could be queuing while she was away) or whether she'd prefer to me to wait until she got back (because she might be worried about me slipping something in her drink). She was happy to leave her drink unattended, but I'm glad that I asked, rather than giving her a dilemma when she got back to the table. ("Is it safe to drink this? Will he be annoyed if I don't want it?")
* I've done a couple of WAM sessions, where I was paying the model to be with me. Both times I said explicitly that as far as I was concerned, I was paying for the introduction/opportunity, so if they changed their mind after the first pie and said "Stop" (e.g. if I was creeping them out) then that was fine, and I wouldn't ask for a refund. I.e. I was acknowledging that consent can be withdrawn at any time. (Fortunately for me, they were both happy to continue.)
This is related to another thread, but I wanted to make a separate post on a more general topic, regarding consent. I'm not an expert on feminism, but I've learned a few things (in conversations with women) which weren't obvious to me as a man, and this might be useful to other people.
Hypothetical scenario 1: I meet someone for a first date, then I walk her home, and she invites me in for a coffee. Is this a coded invitation for "Take me now!" or does it just mean "I'm enjoying our conversation, and I'd like to continue chatting for a bit longer"?
We then go into her kitchen, and she turns the kettle on. While we're waiting for it to boil, I make my move: I put my hand on her cheek, then lean in to kiss her on the lips, and she doesn't make any effort to pull away. That's consent, right? "No means no", but she didn't say no, so we're two adults doing something that we both want.
Hypothetical scenario 2: I go up to someone on the street and ask "Do you have any spare change?" The person turns around to look at me, and notices that I have a gun in my hand. I haven't actually threatened them, or even ordered them to give me money, I've just asked them. So, in theory they're totally free to say no, but in practice they'd probably say "Yes, here you go" because they don't want me to shoot them.
Now come back to the first scenario. I've followed this woman into her kitchen, so I'm standing between her and the doorway (blocking her escape route). I'm also bigger than her, and there's nobody else around to see what's going on. If I try to kiss her and she says "no", maybe I'd be fine with that, apologise profusely, and leave. Or maybe I'd be angry that she's led me on, playing games with me; after all, why did she invite me in if she wasn't interested? In that situation, she might choose to go along with the kiss, because she's afraid of physical violence if she says no. (I'm trying not to be too graphic here, but the same dilemma would apply if I wanted to have sex with her and she didn't want to have sex with me.)
Speaking for myself, I know for a fact that I would take no for an answer. However, the woman doesn't know that. (This is the concept of "Schrodinger's Rapist".)
That creates a problem: how do I know whether someone is really giving consent or whether they feel that they're under duress? My approach is to be explicit, i.e. I'll ask a question and then literally say "It's totally fine for you to say no" (before they answer). I'll also think about my positioning, e.g. I'll try not to stand between someone else and the doorway when I ask a question like this.
Moving away from hypothetical scenarios, here are a couple of real-life scenarios that I've been in, in case my choices are useful to anyone else.
* I was on a date in a pub, and we were taking it in turn to buy each round of drinks. At one point, the woman got up to go to the loo. I asked whether she'd like me to get the next round while she was gone (i.e. I could be queuing while she was away) or whether she'd prefer to me to wait until she got back (because she might be worried about me slipping something in her drink). She was happy to leave her drink unattended, but I'm glad that I asked, rather than giving her a dilemma when she got back to the table. ("Is it safe to drink this? Will he be annoyed if I don't want it?")
* I've done a couple of WAM sessions, where I was paying the model to be with me. Both times I said explicitly that as far as I was concerned, I was paying for the introduction/opportunity, so if they changed their mind after the first pie and said "Stop" (e.g. if I was creeping them out) then that was fine, and I wouldn't ask for a refund. I.e. I was acknowledging that consent can be withdrawn at any time. (Fortunately for me, they were both happy to continue.)
I think the subject of this thread may need to be changed to something around consent. I think this is an important topic that needs to be discussed. There is a lot to be said about consent and about consenting to a kiss is not consenting to sex. I also think that the point about afraid of something worse is a valid point to discuss. My only concern is that there are personalities on here that will take the conversation to a different place and start a not all men or not all women argument. Or that will be flooded with misogyny.
One thing I have done and it has not lead to anything negative is discussing with someone what they are comfortable with. Are they comfortable with kissing, are they comfortable with sex etc. I have been in situations where someone told me they were comfortable with something and then that changed. When it changed I let them guide the encounter with what they were now comfortable with and it was a good encounter. Giving consent once does not mean it is always there. There can be all kinds of reasons why consent was changed. It is important to discuss the change in consent when the person that changes the consent is comfortable with it. Sometimes the change in consent is not because of you. Sometimes the change in consent is something you did. The hardest thing to remember is to not get mad about the change. You are not "owed" anything. Open communication is the key to everything.
One thing I have done and it has not lead to anything negative is discussing with someone what they are comfortable with. Are they comfortable with kissing, are they comfortable with sex etc. I have been in situations where someone told me they were comfortable with something and then that changed. When it changed I let them guide the encounter with what they were now comfortable with and it was a good encounter. Giving consent once does not mean it is always there. There can be all kinds of reasons why consent was changed. It is important to discuss the change in consent when the person that changes the consent is comfortable with it. Sometimes the change in consent is not because of you. Sometimes the change in consent is something you did. The hardest thing to remember is to not get mad about the change. You are not "owed" anything. Open communication is the key to everything.
It's a very important conversation to have, to be sure. And I'm going to repeat this over and over: THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS IMPLIED CONSENT. EVER. NEVER. Being honest with your intentions is the biggest rule. Communication is the most important thing you can do to get that consent.
I think what a lot of people get scared about consent is the fear of rejection. Not wanting to ask because the answer would be brutal and devastating to the ego and their pride. The other issue is with people who struggle socially and may not be able to understand social cues or social mores. Maybe they're developmentally delayed, and not able to understand what they're doing wrong. Fortunately for those people there are now websites where you can have more conversations with people before you meet them, that can help with respecting boundaries and getting consent.
At this day and age, there are hook-up apps and dating apps specifically for booty calls and sex. There's kink and fetish apps and sex workers a plenty. We all like getting laid, and we'll go looking for it when we want it. Now there are websites where you discuss exactly what you want to get together for.
If you're concerned about reading into a person's actions and making a move, then DON'T. If you don't think you can tell if they're sending you the right signals, then you're not capable of making any good decisions based on your confusion. Let them make the first move. You can even just be honest and communicate with your date that you find them attractive and really want to kiss them. Respect them and give them the right to choose how they feel about it.
Wanting to be intimate and being horny don't make you a bad person, and this isn't judgement against wanting those things. But what a lot of people don't realize is that legitimately just asking someone if they're interested in sex can actually work if they're interested in having sex. Just being honest and communicating your intentions is super powerful and respectful.
I think what a lot of people get scared about consent is the fear of rejection. Not wanting to ask because the answer would be brutal and devastating to the ego and their pride. The other issue is with people who struggle socially and may not be able to understand social cues or social mores. Maybe they're developmentally delayed, and not able to understand what they're doing wrong. Fortunately for those people there are now websites where you can have more conversations with people before you meet them, that can help with respecting boundaries and getting consent.
At this day and age, there are hook-up apps and dating apps specifically for booty calls and sex. There's kink and fetish apps and sex workers a plenty. We all like getting laid, and we'll go looking for it when we want it. Now there are websites where you discuss exactly what you want to get together for.
If you're concerned about reading into a person's actions and making a move, then DON'T. If you don't think you can tell if they're sending you the right signals, then you're not capable of making any good decisions based on your confusion. Let them make the first move. You can even just be honest and communicate with your date that you find them attractive and really want to kiss them. Respect them and give them the right to choose how they feel about it.
Wanting to be intimate and being horny don't make you a bad person, and this isn't judgement against wanting those things. But what a lot of people don't realize is that legitimately just asking someone if they're interested in sex can actually work if they're interested in having sex. Just being honest and communicating your intentions is super powerful and respectful.
CreamMeAgain said:
I think what a lot of people get scared about consent is the fear of rejection.
I think what a lot of people get scared about consent is the fear of rejection.
No, for me a prompt rejection is welcome. A prompt, clear, rejection lets me know EXACTLY where I stand and I can move on. My fear (from my personal experience, is being led on and used). It happened in my most recent relationship with a nurse friend who fleeced me for $1500 and lost her mind when I told her I wanted to be with her after a year and a half of close friendship and helping her with her kids, and it happened with my ex wife (20 years together since high school, 13 married) who is now a man selling tea in Portland.
We had 20 years of "consent" or so I thought. As our relationship diminished from a marriage into roommates, into feeling like and being treated like an unwanted pet of the last 4 years of our marriage, we communicated what we were going through and what we wanted. I wanted my wife. They kept changing what they wanted. First they wanted to be bisexual, and have a girlfriend. I said fine, they got a girlfriend and fucked in our bed while I slept on the kitchen floor with undiagnosed cancer in the next room.
Then it as time went on, they decided they were asexual, agender, then non-binary, but male presenting. Finally when we divorced they revealed that they never felt feminine, they stayed with me because they were hoping that one day it would click and wanted to be a good wife. But eventually came to resent me towards the end and having to take care of me with my health being so poor, and absolutely hated every time they had sex with me. That they did it out of a feeling of "marital duty" (we were both raised very Christian).
That has irreparably fucked me to this day. I literally don't know how to trust anyone anymore after being told 20 years of my life with the person I loved the most in this world was a lie.
CreamMeAgain said: If you're concerned about reading into a person's actions and making a move, then DON'T.
This is exactly what I do now, or rather don't do. And this is what I think so many other men are doing today and why so many are broken today.
The problem is that the majority of women WANT men to make the move. They want bold men, they want outgoing men, they want strong and supportive men. And there is a large group that don't know how to do that, or know when they've crossed a line, or just don't want to take the chance of crossing it.
For me it's not a hatred of women, or a resentment, I love women and my dream is to be a husband, a provider, and a father. For me, it's a fear. It's a fear of being used, or having it used against me. It's a fear of being told something is ok and then later being gaslighted and told it never was and that I only assumed it was.
So, I don't really try anymore. Since that day, I can count on one hand the number of times and amount of women I have touched even remotely sexually. One was a UMD member in 2018 who invited me to have a session with her. Then Jayce and Ariel in 2020. And most recently two women I took pictures with this weekend at Exxxotica in NJ, and that was after they told me or directed me to hold them a certain way for the picture. The nurse friend, though I fell for her, I never once kissed, and we really only ever awkwardly hugged (In hind sight, she probably thought I was gay or something).
Between my life incidents and the women friends that I have had who have been raped, I don't dare touch a woman. I cannot bear the thought of doing something they find offensive or creepy.
So in the end we have really shitty men who don't care and create the issues. And men who have become timid and don't want to ever take the chance of possibly being an issue.
So in the end, communication and trust are the keys, can if you don't have both, you can't have consent.
He's more potato now than man. Twisted and evil.
Unless you are given clear, enthusiastic, sober consent, you do not lay a hand on anyone. No "I guess", no bugging them until they give in. "Implied consent" isn't a thing and sometimes they really do just want some coffee.
I always ask before each individual thing.
Like "may I lick your pussy" then also if she hasn't taken a shower or like it's her period or something she'll day no and it won't be awkward.
Seems theres s a lot of opportunities for embarrassing stuff to happen if you're not super clear.
Like "may I lick your pussy" then also if she hasn't taken a shower or like it's her period or something she'll day no and it won't be awkward.
Seems theres s a lot of opportunities for embarrassing stuff to happen if you're not super clear.
I apologize for nothing
Potatoman-J said:
The problem is that the majority of women WANT men to make the move. They want bold men, they want outgoing men, they want strong and supportive men. And there is a large group that don't know how to do that, or know when they've crossed a line, or just don't want to take the chance of crossing it.
The problem is that the majority of women WANT men to make the move. They want bold men, they want outgoing men, they want strong and supportive men. And there is a large group that don't know how to do that, or know when they've crossed a line, or just don't want to take the chance of crossing it.
It feels a little like you are mansplaining to me here. You may have your opinion on this, but I'm not able to agree, not every woman feels that way. Not every woman is into or attracted to every man who takes charge and makes the first move. Sometimes being bold means not paying attention to the signs someone is giving you. But I've heard many men make the same comments about not feeling comfortable with making the first move. Especially after the Me Too movement and I can understand how the whole process of dating feels like navigating a minefield now. I think it's okay to discuss this with the woman you are dating or want to date. I think it's very helpful to simply have a conversation about what you want out of dating with someone. This is why I think hookup apps are a great thing now. You can make having sex part of the conversation before you meet up. And even dating apps, if you're looking for something more serious. You can have the conversation with your date about what you each are looking for in dating someone. And you can have the conversation about what to expect on the first date. I've found that to be very romantic when dating online, just talking at first and then getting excited to meet in person and how we can't wait to kiss each other.
In my personal experience when I've been sexually assaulted, it was when I rejected someone (because I didn't want to lead them on) that the worst came out of them and their touch went from gentle to violent. This has happened to me on more than one occasion, and unfortunately that's because I'm very small and that makes me a target for violence. It's very easy to take control of me. This is the threat that some women are afraid of saying no for when they didn't want someone to make the first move. Because rejection is the moment someone gets mad, and rejection has serious consequences. Even when you say no politely, it can have negative consequences, even the nicest guys can turn dark in an instant.
Some of the expectations both men and women have came about from TV and movies. For example, many old movies show men grabbing women, pulling them in and kissing them. Sometimes it 'shuts them up' if they were argumentative. (and I say that from the movie script's perspective, not mine)
So cut to more recent times and I dated this redhead who seemed interested in me. We began as friends, but there was some underlying energy there, and one time she leaned in and almost kissed me. Then, she began meeting with me to talk of her dates with other men, and how she thought she was in love. (several times) I was clearly in the friend zone. After a year of this, we parted ways, and here's my point to this whole story . . . she told me if I had been a 'real man' and just taken her in my arms and kissed her, she would have wanted sex and probably fallen in love. Sorry, but a real man listens and she continually said she was only comfortable being friends with me. I respected that. I guess she wanted a man to not respect her - an old-fashioned 'real' man who would ignore her saying no and just take what he wants.
That might be an isolated case, yet the story continues in countless paperback romance novels and present day movies. There are even old songs where the woman is singing about saying no but really meaning yes. 'Baby it's cold outside' is a good example of a guy not respecting a girl's boundaries, and she's feeling pressured to give in. Our culture promotes this, whether it's an old black and white movie, or a modern rap video. Consent is often ignored, and it provides a bad example for the young guys watching.
I guess it's up to each individual person to do the right thing.
So cut to more recent times and I dated this redhead who seemed interested in me. We began as friends, but there was some underlying energy there, and one time she leaned in and almost kissed me. Then, she began meeting with me to talk of her dates with other men, and how she thought she was in love. (several times) I was clearly in the friend zone. After a year of this, we parted ways, and here's my point to this whole story . . . she told me if I had been a 'real man' and just taken her in my arms and kissed her, she would have wanted sex and probably fallen in love. Sorry, but a real man listens and she continually said she was only comfortable being friends with me. I respected that. I guess she wanted a man to not respect her - an old-fashioned 'real' man who would ignore her saying no and just take what he wants.
That might be an isolated case, yet the story continues in countless paperback romance novels and present day movies. There are even old songs where the woman is singing about saying no but really meaning yes. 'Baby it's cold outside' is a good example of a guy not respecting a girl's boundaries, and she's feeling pressured to give in. Our culture promotes this, whether it's an old black and white movie, or a modern rap video. Consent is often ignored, and it provides a bad example for the young guys watching.
I guess it's up to each individual person to do the right thing.
Bobographer2 said: Some of the expectations both men and women have came about from TV and movies. For example, many old movies show men grabbing women, pulling them in and kissing them. Sometimes it 'shuts them up' if they were argumentative. (and I say that from the movie script's perspective, not mine)
There are many more examples much older than this one, but Han Solo kissing Princess Leia in The Empire Strikes Back is the first thing that came to mind for me. A lot of what movies included also reflected men's beliefs (or rather, enforced beliefs) at the time about what was acceptable. I do think people who make a habit of gaining social etiquette and value systems from movies/TV in general need to re-evaluate. And I say that as a huge film buff lol.
CreamMeAgain said:
It feels a little like you are mansplaining to me here. You may have your opinion on this, but I'm not able to agree, not every woman feels that way. Not every woman is into or attracted to every man who takes charge and makes the first move. Sometimes being bold means not paying attention to the signs someone is giving you. But I've heard many men make the same comments about not feeling comfortable with making the first move. Especially after the Me Too movement and I can understand how the whole process of dating feels like navigating a minefield now.
It feels a little like you are mansplaining to me here. You may have your opinion on this, but I'm not able to agree, not every woman feels that way. Not every woman is into or attracted to every man who takes charge and makes the first move. Sometimes being bold means not paying attention to the signs someone is giving you. But I've heard many men make the same comments about not feeling comfortable with making the first move. Especially after the Me Too movement and I can understand how the whole process of dating feels like navigating a minefield now.
And this is 100% exactly what I don't want to do and why I go out of my way to NOT flirt. But it appears, I've still yet to figure out how to express myself, share my opinions and experiences without coming off this way.
I really don't want to say something that make someone else feel gaslit or diminish their experiences, if you know me, you know that's not who I am. So, I'm sorry if it came off that way.
Bobographer2 said:
she told me if I had been a 'real man' and just taken her in my arms and kissed her, she would have wanted sex and probably fallen in love. Sorry, but a real man listens and she continually said she was only comfortable being friends with me. I respected that. I guess she wanted a man to not respect her - an old-fashioned 'real' man who would ignore her saying no and just take what he wants.
she told me if I had been a 'real man' and just taken her in my arms and kissed her, she would have wanted sex and probably fallen in love. Sorry, but a real man listens and she continually said she was only comfortable being friends with me. I respected that. I guess she wanted a man to not respect her - an old-fashioned 'real' man who would ignore her saying no and just take what he wants.
This, this, 110% this. I'm not fucking doing that. This shit happened to my grandmother in 2 marriages, happened with my mother, and a number of my women friends. I will never be that guy, because even in a relationship of 20 years, I thought I really KNEW someone, and it turned out I didn't know a god dammed thing (to be fair they didn't at the time either).
After being in a marriage where after 13 years married my spouse told me they were pretending and hoping it would get better, I'm literally more afraid of a woman saying "yes" (and wondering if it's because she's too scared to say no) than one telling me to go walk in front of a bus.
He's more potato now than man. Twisted and evil.
Fun is not fun if it is not fun for all concerned.
Affirmative consent is essential at every step taken
This keeps us all safe.
I've wasted my life trying to enjoy wetlook.
This is a completely true account.
Based on the concept of affirmative consent.
"Years ago, I entered a big-city half marathon in England.
It finished inside a stadium, and the stands were fairly full of families and friends.
I did a low 1hr 20's, with one of my better kicks and finishes, although there must have been at least two hundred finishes ahead of me.
The course was a series of city centre loops, never too far from the stadium.
I wandered outside and clapped groups and individuals along. The water stations were busy, with lots of water being thrown about, and most runners splashing it over themselves.
Later on, a young lady (maybe 25) came into view.
The field was thinner now and most were walking, nearing the end.
I had a small and a large bottle of water in my kit bag.
I offered her the small bottle, to drink.
She took it and thanked me. "I wanted to get wet through!" she said, a little sheepishly, "At the last water station, but they had run out!"
She was wearing a cropped top and matching blue "gym knicker" style shorts.
I pulled the larger bottle out of my bag.
"That can easily be arranged!" I grinned, motioning the bottle toward the back of her neck. "Do you want some?"
"Yes!" she laughed, as I dribbled it down her back.
We walked on and talked for several minutes, punctuated by several more dousings. I asked her a couple of times if she wanted more, in a matter-of-fact way, as if I was just topping up a cup of tea.
She nodded. The back of her top and her shorts were streaked with lines of wetness.
The stadium was coming into view. My bottle was less than half full. She was still sipping from the one I'd given.
"Do you want the rest over you?" I asked.
She nodded enthusiastically and said, "Yes!"
I was too polite to pour it down her front but ran it from one shoulder to the other. She tipped her head back, so lots of the water ran over her chest, rather than just splashing off to the ground.
We could hear huge cheers from inside the stadium.
The back markers were getting just as good a welcome to the finish as had everyone else.
"This is your moment!" I said, backing away from the stadium entrance.
She beamed at me as she waved and disappeared from view.
My life has been filled with nuggets of joy like this.
Affirmative consent is essential at every step taken
This keeps us all safe.
I've wasted my life trying to enjoy wetlook.
This is a completely true account.
Based on the concept of affirmative consent.
"Years ago, I entered a big-city half marathon in England.
It finished inside a stadium, and the stands were fairly full of families and friends.
I did a low 1hr 20's, with one of my better kicks and finishes, although there must have been at least two hundred finishes ahead of me.
The course was a series of city centre loops, never too far from the stadium.
I wandered outside and clapped groups and individuals along. The water stations were busy, with lots of water being thrown about, and most runners splashing it over themselves.
Later on, a young lady (maybe 25) came into view.
The field was thinner now and most were walking, nearing the end.
I had a small and a large bottle of water in my kit bag.
I offered her the small bottle, to drink.
She took it and thanked me. "I wanted to get wet through!" she said, a little sheepishly, "At the last water station, but they had run out!"
She was wearing a cropped top and matching blue "gym knicker" style shorts.
I pulled the larger bottle out of my bag.
"That can easily be arranged!" I grinned, motioning the bottle toward the back of her neck. "Do you want some?"
"Yes!" she laughed, as I dribbled it down her back.
We walked on and talked for several minutes, punctuated by several more dousings. I asked her a couple of times if she wanted more, in a matter-of-fact way, as if I was just topping up a cup of tea.
She nodded. The back of her top and her shorts were streaked with lines of wetness.
The stadium was coming into view. My bottle was less than half full. She was still sipping from the one I'd given.
"Do you want the rest over you?" I asked.
She nodded enthusiastically and said, "Yes!"
I was too polite to pour it down her front but ran it from one shoulder to the other. She tipped her head back, so lots of the water ran over her chest, rather than just splashing off to the ground.
We could hear huge cheers from inside the stadium.
The back markers were getting just as good a welcome to the finish as had everyone else.
"This is your moment!" I said, backing away from the stadium entrance.
She beamed at me as she waved and disappeared from view.
My life has been filled with nuggets of joy like this.
Splash me
Potatoman-J said:
After being in a marriage where after 13 years married my spouse told me they were pretending and hoping it would get better, I'm literally more afraid of a woman saying "yes" (and wondering if it's because she's too scared to say no) than one telling me to go walk in front of a bus.
After being in a marriage where after 13 years married my spouse told me they were pretending and hoping it would get better, I'm literally more afraid of a woman saying "yes" (and wondering if it's because she's too scared to say no) than one telling me to go walk in front of a bus.
I was in a common-law relationship where we owned property together when towards the end, she informed me that she always stayed with me because I was her best friend. (but nothing more) No wonder the sex had died down early on. Looking back, I don't even know why I stayed with her, other than the property being amazing (150 acres) and my life was otherwise pretty good.
Now I'm married to a truly wonderful woman who loves me, but it just shows that we can never really know for sure. Love is a gamble. So is life. We can do the best we can and hope things work out. But there is no guaranteed 'happily ever after' because even if you're the perfect couple, an accident or illness can end it too. All we can do is keep on trying and doing the best we can. Life is good if we try to make it that way.
I would say that if a guy is intellectually mature enough, and sufficiently cognizant of his own personality and his own behavior to be participating willingly on this thread, he probably hasn't got much to worry about.
Communication is #1.
#2 would be the ability to "read the room" -- that is, be fairly good about recognizing whether a woman is comfortable with you or not.
#3 would be that he knows how to ask questions if he isn't sure about what he's reading in item #2.
TV, movies and stories are, by the way, are all wrong. In my youth, there was an excellent example:
It was the bodice-ripping "historical" romance novel, marketed to women with a picture of a busty girl in an old-fashioned gown swooning in the arms of a man with an insanely muscular build, and the story was more about steamy sexual tension between the two primary characters than it was about actual history.
While the female character was assigned a full personality, the hero was a caricature of a man, and if you try to be just like him, you'll either find you're a social outcast, or you'll end up in jail.
Fetish and porn contain caricatures of women in exactly the same way.
I used to actually meet other mud people. (I don't any more. I'm getting too far up there.)
They were real people too. Nobody I met was ever exactly like me in what they wanted to do or what they fantasized about. So for things to work out, that often meant real-life negotiations and honest self-disclosure.
Sometimes, we had to just admit that it wasn't working, and move on. But I have to admit, it was easier than dating ever was. People were really honest. And nobody was expecting a lifetime relationship!
Nessie
Communication is #1.
#2 would be the ability to "read the room" -- that is, be fairly good about recognizing whether a woman is comfortable with you or not.
#3 would be that he knows how to ask questions if he isn't sure about what he's reading in item #2.
TV, movies and stories are, by the way, are all wrong. In my youth, there was an excellent example:
It was the bodice-ripping "historical" romance novel, marketed to women with a picture of a busty girl in an old-fashioned gown swooning in the arms of a man with an insanely muscular build, and the story was more about steamy sexual tension between the two primary characters than it was about actual history.
While the female character was assigned a full personality, the hero was a caricature of a man, and if you try to be just like him, you'll either find you're a social outcast, or you'll end up in jail.
Fetish and porn contain caricatures of women in exactly the same way.
I used to actually meet other mud people. (I don't any more. I'm getting too far up there.)
They were real people too. Nobody I met was ever exactly like me in what they wanted to do or what they fantasized about. So for things to work out, that often meant real-life negotiations and honest self-disclosure.
Sometimes, we had to just admit that it wasn't working, and move on. But I have to admit, it was easier than dating ever was. People were really honest. And nobody was expecting a lifetime relationship!
Nessie
And oops, I forgot something.
"Communication is #1.
#2 would be the ability to "read the room" -- that is, be fairly good about recognizing whether a woman is comfortable with you or not.
#3 would be that he knows how to ask questions if he isn't sure about what he's reading in item."
I should also add:
#4 No human being is entitled to access to another human being's body. Permission must always be obtained.
There, I'm done.
Nessie
"Communication is #1.
#2 would be the ability to "read the room" -- that is, be fairly good about recognizing whether a woman is comfortable with you or not.
#3 would be that he knows how to ask questions if he isn't sure about what he's reading in item."
I should also add:
#4 No human being is entitled to access to another human being's body. Permission must always be obtained.
There, I'm done.
Nessie
You can make a move, you can be bold, you can be confident, without just grabbing someone and kissing them.
I get that you don't want to say "Can I kiss you?" - that's fine. You can say "I'm going to kiss you now" and wait a few seconds. It's bold, it's confident, but it provides the opportunity for the other person to say "no you're not".
Hell, you know what shows real confidence?
"You're going to kiss me now."
I get that you don't want to say "Can I kiss you?" - that's fine. You can say "I'm going to kiss you now" and wait a few seconds. It's bold, it's confident, but it provides the opportunity for the other person to say "no you're not".
Hell, you know what shows real confidence?
"You're going to kiss me now."
deano2099 said: You can say "I'm going to kiss you now" and wait a few seconds. It's bold, it's confident, but it provides the opportunity for the other person to say "no you're not".
I think you've missed my point. There might be various reasons why someone doesn't say no (e.g. because they're afraid of being injured/killed), but that's not the same thing as enthusiastic consent.
So just real quick...
First, and I'm happy to have people dispute me on this, but it doesn't sound to me like your marriage lacked consent. Consent doesn't guarantee happiness or even authenticity; people can (and do) consent to things that aren't right for them all the time. Especially if someone is going through an experience that they barely understand and may not even have the words for, consent can be entirely real while also being an unreliable guide to happiness. That's one of the reasons why it's important for us to know ourselves as best we can.
Now, obviously, that doesn't mean "fuck it, just throw consent out the window." Consent is still by far the best guide we have to these situations. But "best" doesn't mean "100% reliable all the time." So to me, as an outsider who's only hearing the summary of this situation, it doesn't sound like you should beat yourself up about your marriage. That's easier said than done, and it doesn't give you your trust back, but to me at least you don't sound like an abuser or anything like that right now.
Second, I agree with CreamMe's entire message, although it seems like maybe some of it got lost or deemphasized in her phrasing. In particular, I think that the move/don't move thing is a false dilemma. If you're struggling in move/don't move situations (for whatever reason), you can say that. There are likable and honest ways of saying, "Hey, I feel really good with you right now, but I had a rough time in my last relationship, so help me out. Right now my radar is saying 'kiss her' [or whatever] - what does yours say?" That's not an admission that you're broken, and it's not a failure of your masculinity. It's just an evolution of what you need to do in order to be the person you want and deserve to be.
And, yeah, that's not easy to do. Yeah, there will be some women who can't handle it. Yeah, there's still a minor chance that some women will feel pressured to say yes. But, like, go ahead and show me an approach that's always easy to do, is never a turn-off, and always produces flawless honesty. Fear is one thing; I understand fear. But I don't think that you should go around believing that you're stuck in a situation that requires you to either take a significant risk with someone else's comfort or live as a hermit forever.
Potatoman-J said: We had 20 years of "consent" or so I thought.
That has irreparably fucked me to this day. I literally don't know how to trust anyone anymore after being told 20 years of my life with the person I loved the most in this world was a lie...
This is exactly what I do now, or rather don't do. And this is what I think so many other men are doing today and why so many are broken today.
That has irreparably fucked me to this day. I literally don't know how to trust anyone anymore after being told 20 years of my life with the person I loved the most in this world was a lie...
CreamMeAgain said: If you're concerned about reading into a person's actions and making a move, then DON'T.
This is exactly what I do now, or rather don't do. And this is what I think so many other men are doing today and why so many are broken today.
First, and I'm happy to have people dispute me on this, but it doesn't sound to me like your marriage lacked consent. Consent doesn't guarantee happiness or even authenticity; people can (and do) consent to things that aren't right for them all the time. Especially if someone is going through an experience that they barely understand and may not even have the words for, consent can be entirely real while also being an unreliable guide to happiness. That's one of the reasons why it's important for us to know ourselves as best we can.
Now, obviously, that doesn't mean "fuck it, just throw consent out the window." Consent is still by far the best guide we have to these situations. But "best" doesn't mean "100% reliable all the time." So to me, as an outsider who's only hearing the summary of this situation, it doesn't sound like you should beat yourself up about your marriage. That's easier said than done, and it doesn't give you your trust back, but to me at least you don't sound like an abuser or anything like that right now.
Second, I agree with CreamMe's entire message, although it seems like maybe some of it got lost or deemphasized in her phrasing. In particular, I think that the move/don't move thing is a false dilemma. If you're struggling in move/don't move situations (for whatever reason), you can say that. There are likable and honest ways of saying, "Hey, I feel really good with you right now, but I had a rough time in my last relationship, so help me out. Right now my radar is saying 'kiss her' [or whatever] - what does yours say?" That's not an admission that you're broken, and it's not a failure of your masculinity. It's just an evolution of what you need to do in order to be the person you want and deserve to be.
And, yeah, that's not easy to do. Yeah, there will be some women who can't handle it. Yeah, there's still a minor chance that some women will feel pressured to say yes. But, like, go ahead and show me an approach that's always easy to do, is never a turn-off, and always produces flawless honesty. Fear is one thing; I understand fear. But I don't think that you should go around believing that you're stuck in a situation that requires you to either take a significant risk with someone else's comfort or live as a hermit forever.
Just to throw this into the pot.......
During one of the lockdowns during 2020 I was called out to a domestic property that had a failed water pump on the foul system. The home owner that I met was female and on her own. I am in my mid 40's and I would have said she was mid 50's. There was the normal banter, but nothing that I would say was extreme, just funny. I would say it could have been the same banter between myself and a 85 year old granny. Note: due to my job I do not wear any sort of jewellery or wedding rings. The control panel for this external pump was originally mounted on the wall in a small back room that had since been converted to a utility room. This control panel was now buried in the depths of the work units/cupboards.
To get to this control panel I had to basically climb into this low level cupboard with my top half of my body inside this cupboard. This left my legs and waist sticking outside into the utility room. The next thing that happened, when I say shocked me I could not actually move.
Most men would probably think that what happened next would be an ideal fantasy but when it actually happens it is actually horrendous.
She basically knelt down and started to feel/rub between my legs, no direct skin touched as I was wearing shorts with overalls over the top.
My return look must have been it, as within less than a second she realised what she had done and was now so apologetic, in fact hysterically apologetic.
I then got the story that she had just split up as the first lock down had tipped the couple over the edge, she was working from home, I had no rings on?! etc etc.
All I can say is she was petrified, I was not angry but just felt very , very awkward.
So technically, was I sexually assault in the work place?
To think that this person could lose their job, have a suspended prison sentence and have to be on the sexual offenders list for that 5 seconds of madness of her part..........for me I would not really want that to happen so nothing came from it. But that is my view based on my personal experience.
I would not return to that property in the future though.
During one of the lockdowns during 2020 I was called out to a domestic property that had a failed water pump on the foul system. The home owner that I met was female and on her own. I am in my mid 40's and I would have said she was mid 50's. There was the normal banter, but nothing that I would say was extreme, just funny. I would say it could have been the same banter between myself and a 85 year old granny. Note: due to my job I do not wear any sort of jewellery or wedding rings. The control panel for this external pump was originally mounted on the wall in a small back room that had since been converted to a utility room. This control panel was now buried in the depths of the work units/cupboards.
To get to this control panel I had to basically climb into this low level cupboard with my top half of my body inside this cupboard. This left my legs and waist sticking outside into the utility room. The next thing that happened, when I say shocked me I could not actually move.
Most men would probably think that what happened next would be an ideal fantasy but when it actually happens it is actually horrendous.
She basically knelt down and started to feel/rub between my legs, no direct skin touched as I was wearing shorts with overalls over the top.
My return look must have been it, as within less than a second she realised what she had done and was now so apologetic, in fact hysterically apologetic.
I then got the story that she had just split up as the first lock down had tipped the couple over the edge, she was working from home, I had no rings on?! etc etc.
All I can say is she was petrified, I was not angry but just felt very , very awkward.
So technically, was I sexually assault in the work place?
To think that this person could lose their job, have a suspended prison sentence and have to be on the sexual offenders list for that 5 seconds of madness of her part..........for me I would not really want that to happen so nothing came from it. But that is my view based on my personal experience.
I would not return to that property in the future though.
Diver2810 said: So technically, was I sexually assault in the work place?
Under UK law, I would say yes. Obviously it's then your choice about whether you want to report the incident or not.
More generally, I think the traditional narrative around rape is that it involves someone being dragged into a dark alley with a knife to their throat. In that scenario, the attacker clearly knows that they're doing something wrong, and that the person they're attacking doesn't consent.
However, the point of this thread is that people can make mistakes, and genuinely believe that the other person welcomes their attention. (Based on your description, I think that applies to the woman you visited.) So, assuming that most of us actually want to do the right thing and be good people, it's important to get consent.
For men in particular, there are things which we might normally be oblivious to (e.g. "is the other person trapped here?"), so it's also important to be aware of them. I can't claim that my original post is an exhaustive list, and I'd welcome any extra suggestions.
Saturation Hall, Langstonedale
Lord of the Pies
Diver2810 said: So technically, was I sexually assault in the work place?
Yes, no question about it. Utterly wrong of her to do so.
Diver2810 said: To think that this person could lose their job, have a suspended prison sentence and have to be on the sexual offenders list for that 5 seconds of madness of her part..........for me I would not really want that to happen so nothing came from it. But that is my view based on my personal experience.
That's fair enough and very magnanimous of you, but also I'm guessing you didn't feel that physically threatenned, more just shocked / surprised / horrified by it? As a fairly strong guy in the prime of life and doing a physical job, you'd probably not have had much trouble forcing her to stop if she'd tried to continue against your will? That's a major difference between women's and men's experience - the fear factor. Imagine if instead of you, the person trying to reach the control panel was a 21 y/o just-out-of-apprenticeship female plumber, and the householder had been a 40 y/o bloke of average male strength and weight. Plus having the fairly common male "I'll take what I want and brook no argument" attitude. Turns shocking into terrifying. And sadly that's the reality lots of women face.
I had a woman try and force me into sex once - bear in mind I'm asexual and actively turned off by nudity - fully clothed WAM is my sole kink and the only thing I react to. The result can best be described as farcical and I certainly didn't feel under any kind of threat. This is the inbuilt advantage us men have, that most women, unless they are actual bodybuilders, don't.
Diver2810 said: I would not return to that property in the future though.
Don't blame you in the slightest, I'd be exactly the same. Lack of threat doesn't make it any less horrific. **sympathy**
Saturation Hall - Forth! The Gungemaidens!
Breaking the law such as a speeding ticket is quantifiable, you have a figure over the speed limit that you drove. In relation to sexual misconduct I think it is incredibly difficult to give a simple yes or no answer.a lot depends on the victim, I very quickly realised the whole situation this lady was in and I suppose I gave her the benefit of the doubt but same situation with a young lad then this involves the law. The variables are incredible in any of these situations making what is a difficult scenario even more difficult to judge/punish . A very , very difficult subject but also very good that this is being discussed on here.
Diver2810 said:
So technically, was I sexually assault in the work place?
So technically, was I sexually assault in the work place?
Yep. You were. No doubt about it.
To think that this person could lose their job, have a suspended prison sentence and have to be on the sexual offenders list for that 5 seconds of madness of her part..........for me I would not really want that to happen so nothing came from it. But that is my view based on my personal experience.
Well, she doesn't sound like a mass murderer or anything. You have a right to make that judgment call.
I would report it, but the reason these things are so scary for women is because of the size and strength differential. With the gender roles reversed, I'd be wondering if it's just the beginning of something horrific and they'll find my dead body stuffed in a cupboard some day.
Yep, I would report. Definitely. Without pity.
I would not return to that property in the future though.
I rather doubt you're wanted back anyway. It's not your fault, though. The blame is hers. All hers.
Nessie
flank said: Content warning: sexual assault.
This is related to another thread, but I wanted to make a separate post on a more general topic, regarding consent. I'm not an expert on feminism, but I've learned a few things (in conversations with women) which weren't obvious to me as a man, and this might be useful to other people.
Hypothetical scenario 1: I meet someone for a first date, then I walk her home, and she invites me in for a coffee. Is this a coded invitation for "Take me now!" or does it just mean "I'm enjoying our conversation, and I'd like to continue chatting for a bit longer"?
We then go into her kitchen, and she turns the kettle on. While we're waiting for it to boil, I make my move: I put my hand on her cheek, then lean in to kiss her on the lips, and she doesn't make any effort to pull away. That's consent, right? "No means no", but she didn't say no, so we're two adults doing something that we both want.
Hypothetical scenario 2: I go up to someone on the street and ask "Do you have any spare change?" The person turns around to look at me, and notices that I have a gun in my hand. I haven't actually threatened them, or even ordered them to give me money, I've just asked them. So, in theory they're totally free to say no, but in practice they'd probably say "Yes, here you go" because they don't want me to shoot them.
Now come back to the first scenario. I've followed this woman into her kitchen, so I'm standing between her and the doorway (blocking her escape route). I'm also bigger than her, and there's nobody else around to see what's going on. If I try to kiss her and she says "no", maybe I'd be fine with that, apologise profusely, and leave. Or maybe I'd be angry that she's led me on, playing games with me; after all, why did she invite me in if she wasn't interested? In that situation, she might choose to go along with the kiss, because she's afraid of physical violence if she says no. (I'm trying not to be too graphic here, but the same dilemma would apply if I wanted to have sex with her and she didn't want to have sex with me.)
Speaking for myself, I know for a fact that I would take no for an answer. However, the woman doesn't know that. (This is the concept of "Schrodinger's Rapist".)
That creates a problem: how do I know whether someone is really giving consent or whether they feel that they're under duress? My approach is to be explicit, i.e. I'll ask a question and then literally say "It's totally fine for you to say no" (before they answer). I'll also think about my positioning, e.g. I'll try not to stand between someone else and the doorway when I ask a question like this.
Moving away from hypothetical scenarios, here are a couple of real-life scenarios that I've been in, in case my choices are useful to anyone else.
* I was on a date in a pub, and we were taking it in turn to buy each round of drinks. At one point, the woman got up to go to the loo. I asked whether she'd like me to get the next round while she was gone (i.e. I could be queuing while she was away) or whether she'd prefer to me to wait until she got back (because she might be worried about me slipping something in her drink). She was happy to leave her drink unattended, but I'm glad that I asked, rather than giving her a dilemma when she got back to the table. ("Is it safe to drink this? Will he be annoyed if I don't want it?")
* I've done a couple of WAM sessions, where I was paying the model to be with me. Both times I said explicitly that as far as I was concerned, I was paying for the introduction/opportunity, so if they changed their mind after the first pie and said "Stop" (e.g. if I was creeping them out) then that was fine, and I wouldn't ask for a refund. I.e. I was acknowledging that consent can be withdrawn at any time. (Fortunately for me, they were both happy to continue.)
This is related to another thread, but I wanted to make a separate post on a more general topic, regarding consent. I'm not an expert on feminism, but I've learned a few things (in conversations with women) which weren't obvious to me as a man, and this might be useful to other people.
Hypothetical scenario 1: I meet someone for a first date, then I walk her home, and she invites me in for a coffee. Is this a coded invitation for "Take me now!" or does it just mean "I'm enjoying our conversation, and I'd like to continue chatting for a bit longer"?
We then go into her kitchen, and she turns the kettle on. While we're waiting for it to boil, I make my move: I put my hand on her cheek, then lean in to kiss her on the lips, and she doesn't make any effort to pull away. That's consent, right? "No means no", but she didn't say no, so we're two adults doing something that we both want.
Hypothetical scenario 2: I go up to someone on the street and ask "Do you have any spare change?" The person turns around to look at me, and notices that I have a gun in my hand. I haven't actually threatened them, or even ordered them to give me money, I've just asked them. So, in theory they're totally free to say no, but in practice they'd probably say "Yes, here you go" because they don't want me to shoot them.
Now come back to the first scenario. I've followed this woman into her kitchen, so I'm standing between her and the doorway (blocking her escape route). I'm also bigger than her, and there's nobody else around to see what's going on. If I try to kiss her and she says "no", maybe I'd be fine with that, apologise profusely, and leave. Or maybe I'd be angry that she's led me on, playing games with me; after all, why did she invite me in if she wasn't interested? In that situation, she might choose to go along with the kiss, because she's afraid of physical violence if she says no. (I'm trying not to be too graphic here, but the same dilemma would apply if I wanted to have sex with her and she didn't want to have sex with me.)
Speaking for myself, I know for a fact that I would take no for an answer. However, the woman doesn't know that. (This is the concept of "Schrodinger's Rapist".)
That creates a problem: how do I know whether someone is really giving consent or whether they feel that they're under duress? My approach is to be explicit, i.e. I'll ask a question and then literally say "It's totally fine for you to say no" (before they answer). I'll also think about my positioning, e.g. I'll try not to stand between someone else and the doorway when I ask a question like this.
Moving away from hypothetical scenarios, here are a couple of real-life scenarios that I've been in, in case my choices are useful to anyone else.
* I was on a date in a pub, and we were taking it in turn to buy each round of drinks. At one point, the woman got up to go to the loo. I asked whether she'd like me to get the next round while she was gone (i.e. I could be queuing while she was away) or whether she'd prefer to me to wait until she got back (because she might be worried about me slipping something in her drink). She was happy to leave her drink unattended, but I'm glad that I asked, rather than giving her a dilemma when she got back to the table. ("Is it safe to drink this? Will he be annoyed if I don't want it?")
* I've done a couple of WAM sessions, where I was paying the model to be with me. Both times I said explicitly that as far as I was concerned, I was paying for the introduction/opportunity, so if they changed their mind after the first pie and said "Stop" (e.g. if I was creeping them out) then that was fine, and I wouldn't ask for a refund. I.e. I was acknowledging that consent can be withdrawn at any time. (Fortunately for me, they were both happy to continue.)
The gun IS the threat.
Just like one should never pull a gun unless they intend to use it, when a gun is pulled, it is always treated as though it is intended to be used.
The fact you didn't make a verbal threat is irrelevant.
Dr. of Splatterology
piboiva said: The gun IS the threat.
Just like one should never pull a gun unless they intend to use it, when a gun is pulled, it is always treated as though it is intended to be used.
The fact you didn't make a verbal threat is irrelevant.
Just like one should never pull a gun unless they intend to use it, when a gun is pulled, it is always treated as though it is intended to be used.
The fact you didn't make a verbal threat is irrelevant.
Yes, I agree. By analogy, that means that if I'm looming over someone and/or blocking their escape, my body is the threat, and the fact that I haven't made a verbal threat is also irrelevant.
Taking a more specific example, look at the recent incident with MostWAM (as reported in the newspaper). A female model was getting changed in the back of a van, wearing only a towel. Presumably this was a windowless van, otherwise it wouldn't be very effective as a changing room. A male producer then followed her in, which implies that he was standing between her and the exit (the back door of the van). He asked to touch her breasts, and she nodded.
The question is, does this count as consent? Putting myself in her position, what would have happened if she'd said no? I think there are 4 plausible outcomes:
a) He'd apologise profusely, climb out of the van and close the door, leaving her to get changed in peace. He'd then drive her home and drop her off.
b) He'd chuck her out of the van and drive off, leaving her stranded in a remote location without her clothes, phone, or money, just a towel.
c) He'd go ahead and grope her anyway, without any witnesses.
d) He'd hit her, then grope her (again without any witnesses).
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that Leon would have done options b, c, or d. My point is that in a situation like this, someone might genuinely want to be a good person, and think that they're doing everything right by asking for consent before initiating physical contact, but they might not realise how it all seems to the other person (i.e. the implicit threat).
The purpose of this thread is to encourage empathy (even to the point of paranoia), so that you're not coercing people by accident.
Saturation Hall, Langstonedale
Lord of the Pies
I think the main take-away from all of this is that no matter how much attraction a producer feels to any of their models, never, ever try and initiate either a relationship, or just casual sex, during a shoot (including during preparation or clean-up).
If you want to ask a model to date, do so separately and entirely away from shooting days. And be aware the most likely outcome is the model will say no and depending on how you act there will be a risk they may not want to work with you again.
Way back in the 1990s Rob Blaine wrote in his Messy Photography book, "photographers who try and chase models are the bane of this business" (or words to that effect), and that anyone serious about professional adult photography should entirely separete model work from dating and never confuse the two.
If you want to ask a model to date, do so separately and entirely away from shooting days. And be aware the most likely outcome is the model will say no and depending on how you act there will be a risk they may not want to work with you again.
Way back in the 1990s Rob Blaine wrote in his Messy Photography book, "photographers who try and chase models are the bane of this business" (or words to that effect), and that anyone serious about professional adult photography should entirely separete model work from dating and never confuse the two.
Saturation Hall - Forth! The Gungemaidens!
Sponsors
VIP Coupons
Design & Code ©1998-2025 Loverbuns, LLC 18 U.S.C. 2257 Record-Keeping Requirements Compliance Statement
Epoch Billing Support Log In