So I recently got into an argument with a friend, and I would like som perspective on that, and who better than a range of people here on UMD.

So the long story short is, I have some friends who a religious and they believe that homosexuality is a sin etc. I don't believe that at all, and while I find their view point disappointing, I accept it to a degree.

My self, I have no problem it, and honestly don't care what people do in their own time as long as they're not harming anyone. However they called me a hypocrite because I can't be for some thing if I have friends (two that I know of, I don't really speak to anymore) who are anti gay.

I hope I've made sense.

If we only kept friends with those whom we agree on things, no-one would ever broaden their thinking, we would never learn new things and we would never change.
The fact that your friends (or former friends) have a viewpoint does not implicate you in sharing it.
In fact, it gives you the opportunity to challenge their prejudice, beyond the duty we all have to speak out against homophobia whenever it is appropriate to do so.
I can think of friends and acquaintances who have influenced me, and I would say that you can influence your friends for the better.

Do you defend their rights to exist and thrive in public, or do you think more along the lines of a "don't ask don't tell" personal policy? If the former then you probably ought to disagree severely with your anti-gay friends or maybe disassociate. If the latter then you can do whatever you want because you're not taking sides, but it's not exactly a morally heroic move.

I'm more of a don't ask, but feel free to tell me type of person. I was raised to love everyone regardless of their back ground, and think of life as an Us and them and not just an us vs them mindset.

I'm not trying to be morally heroic, but the thought of being called a hypocrite is kind of hurtful.

You're not a hypocrite if you're doing your duties to your conscience. That said, you should be aware, just on a prudential and not moral level, that other people will judge you for who you associate with. So you definitely should take that into consideration, too!

if you never heard me say it before... EVERYTHING is *situational* to me.

Please allow me to elaborate: a friend might ask me - what would you do if a crazed druggie kicked in the door of your apartment?

This "situation" is not distinct enough for me to begin to describe my reactions! For example - Does he have any visible weapons? Is my 8 year old daughter at home right now? There are so many unspecified variables, and one of which would cause me to act differently depending on the EXACT situation...

And so, there are *SO* many unspecified details within your question...

On second thought, i now return to the main subject of discussion.

In my opinion, you are not a hypocrite.


So... YOU can be friends with someone who is anti-gay. It appears to be your friends that might be the hypocrites. Ask them if they ever heard of "hate the sin, but love the sinner" Many religions consider homosexuality to be a sin. It seems like these friends are attempting to bully you into adopting their viewpoint?

It is my opinion that anyone who possesses a spine does not want to be labeled as a hypocrite, and it seems to me like your friend is using this basis to convince you to adopt their anti-gay value.

I wouldn't tell them that you asked for opinions on this website (if they are *SO* opposed to homosexuality, they probably would not approve of this website either? And would probably give zero consideration for the opinions coming from such hypocritical sinners?)

You can just say you were thinking about what they said, and you now regard what they said in the following way... it looks to me like they are the ones that don't want to be cast as hypocritical... that if THEY are anti-gay, then they cannot be friends with someone who is not anti-gay?

(unfortunately, it might be time to end that friendship?) it might be savable?

You have it backwards. My friend, Lets call them Pat who is part of the LGBTQI etc banner hates the fact I have friends or acquaintances who are religious and have shown that they side with those who preach hate speech. A prominate case was when a Rugby Union player made horrible comments about gay people and then hid behind his faith as a way to justify it.

Basically my friend pat has told me I can't support LGBT etc people if I still have on my friends list those who are anti gay and has called me a hypocrite. Does that clear the waters a bit?

You have it backwards. My friend, Lets call them Pat who is part of the LGBTQI etc banner hates the fact I have friends or acquaintances who are religious and have shown that they side with those who preach hate speech. A prominate case was when a Rugby Union player made horrible comments about gay people and then hid behind his faith as a way to justify it.

Basically my friend pat has told me I can't support LGBT etc people if I still have on my friends list those who are anti gay and has called me a hypocrite. Does that clear the waters a bit?

But then it seems you have a problem with your LGBT... friend, and not with the religious one.

There must be reasons (other that your opinions on homosexuality) why you a your religious friend are friends. So, are these other reasons more meaningful and worthy of keeping than the pro/anti gay position you two don't share? Because, as you've described it, they don't seem to be to Pat.

If we could only have friends we agree on everything, then we likely wouldn't have friends at all.

I again I support LGBT people, and the people who don't are just a random collection of people I have met through my days of church hopping.

I try not to have a problem with anyone, and even if I don't agree eye to eye on some issues, I try not to turn my back on them. They might think of me as some sort of immoral person for what I choose to spend my money on but it says more about their judgemental attitudes.

I didn't realize we were talking about friends who dealt in hate speech. Yes, you should disassociate from them if you want to be consistent with your conscience. Hate is a hard limit.

My god... none of us have any right to dictate to people who they should be friends with. This sounds like an internet-facilitated problem, as you refer to your "friends list" - if these were real-life friends only, or if your friends list wasn't visible to him, he probably wouldn't even know or be kicking up any fuss. Take it from me as a gay guy - just because he's on the LGBTIQWTF*+ spectrum doesn't mean he has the right to emotionally blackmail you into ditching your friends. That's immature at best and abusive/controlling at worst.

The way I deal with this kind of thing is that while I'll happily be friends with people who have different values and views to me, I won't remain friends with anyone who starts spouting hate speech. Anyone doing that gets booted. But I wouldn't presume to tell others who they can and can't have in their friends groups. Most of the time what happens is that someone starts ranting and a whole bunch of us deep-six them all at once as we realise what their views are.

A lesson I learned a long time ago is that you can't always be friends with everyone and that sometimes being friends with a particular person comes at a cost. Sometimes, that cost will be worth it and other times it won't be. Back to high school, I had a friend who was super weird and that caused others to not like her; a few people thought I was weird for hanging out with her and didn't want to associate with me. But she was really funny and kind and a great person to have around and the crowd of friends I assembled with her as my friend was better than the one I would have assembled if I had cast her aside because the ones who didn't want to talk to us weren't very good girls either.

Let's start with your friend. You can be friends with people you don't think have the best morals. I had a friend who was, frankly, manipulative toward guys and abused her sexuality to get whatever she wanted in a disingenuous way, to the point of dishonesty (she let the guys make a lot of assuming). I didn't really like her behavior but aside from this, I enjoyed her company a lot. Should I have tossed her out of my life entirely because of her morals? There's not really a right answer there. I did keep some distance from her and not let her be super close to me because her behavior made me question her integrity and honesty, although she was fun to go dancing at bars with and have some drinks. People didn't dislike her and there wasn't really a cost to associating with her, so that made it a bit easier.

There is a cost to associating with your friend, though, which is at the very least potential friendship with Pat. You have to decide if this person is worth it, really. If he's got a lot of qualities that are really admirable otherwise, it may be. Or if he's generally hard to deal with and people don't want to come to events he's coming to, then it might not be. Unless the people who won't come are themselves vile in some way, like the girls who didn't want to talk to me because I had a certain friend.

Now let's go to Pat. This one is much more complicated. The first thing at play here is that Pat has made LBGTQA+ rights a foremost priority in their life and uses this as an absolute judge of moral character. It may be justified if Pat identifies as such because they see any disagreement is a fundamental attack on who Pat is. If someone told me they blame "my people for bringing Coronavirus here" or all Asians are spies for the motherland here to ruin America or all women are gold-digging whores, I would have a hard time forgiving that person because being Asian and female are things intrinsic to my existence. If someone had a friend like that, I might wonder how she thought about me as well--although her reassurances would go a long way, if she told me how she disapproves of that friend's attitude and really wants to spur change in them. I tend to look for the good in people, though, and think their beliefs are more out of ignorance and what they've been told and would hope my presence could spur change, help that person see that I'm just like anyone else (well, anyone else who likes pies in her panties ).

If Pat is just an activist who has decided to rally for the oppressed out of a sense of righteousness...well, that's a bit different. People do this with other behaviors and ideas as well and it's nearly a cult-like mindset and behavior. But it isn't as simple as dividing people into "virtuous" and "evil" camps based on their stance on the issue. They are so deeply invested in a cause or idea that they cannot imagine that everyone else is not and don't understand why others aren't too--"ideologically possessed," if you want to put a term to it. In many ways, they've let their entire life revolve around this cause and anyone who doesn't support it in the same way is deeply insulting their identity, morality, and sense of purpose. In some cases, this believe is justified.

Thing is that these sorts of people move from cause to cause when new ones come up or seem more important. A few years ago, I remember seeing some posts in which people were saying that if they saw anyone with a straw, they would unfriend them. We don't hear anything about straws now. Some causes are more lasting, of course, but you get the idea. The problem here is that a person like Pat, because they feel they occupy the moral high ground, will eventually dictate other things you are allowed and not allowed to do because of a moral offense committed by that business or person.

The other issue is that Pat believes they are effecting actual change with their orders, that anti-gay attitudes can be squelched if everyone who has them is silenced, shunned, and punished in some way. As we saw in the recent election, this doesn't work, because all the insults and threats lobbed at Trump and anyone who voted for him didn't scare 70M+ people away from voting for him anyway. It may have encouraged more people to vote for him.

Ask yourself this: if you cut off the original friendship and tell that person why, is he going to change his beliefs? "Oh, some people told me to stick it, I better like gay people now?" Or is he likely to double down on his philosophy and become MORE anti-gay? (Sunken cost: it's already cost X to have that belief and reversing it doesn't induce a refund, so...) Is there any actual good from your perspective or lesson from his to come out of that? Seems like Pat has created a situation where they have no risk and win the moral victory no matter what--either you denounce and punish a homophobe for them or Pat denounces you both. I'd call it deliberately manipulative but it goes back to that "this is the most important thing in the world" mindset, so it's not done to be malicious because Pat believes this action results in GOOD to the world. You have to really decide if that if this behavior, which will likely happen again, is how you wish to operate within your own moral code. It might be, actually, I don't know. I don't have all the answers. :p

Thank you to everyone who has chimed in. I've pasted the Facebook conversations we had, the more relevant ones.

(Matty87)You asked me how I can be friends with people with "abhorrent" view points, well the truth might disappoint you. With my upbringing I was told to love everyone, even the challenging. I try not to have any enemies or people I genuinely hate with a passion. I have people I loathe, of course. People I would rather not help if I can avoid it but I try not to hold any malice in my heart towards anyone. Apart from the Murisons, they can choke on a bag of dicks for all I care, they're trash and I do hate them, when I think about their entire rotten family.

Even the people who bullied me, like Joe, or people who did it when I was a kid are only met with pity more than anything. They certainly didn't care what impact they had on me so why should I care about them. Joe is pitied because I find he doesn't have much of a life outside of work, which is tragic for the obvious reasons. But that isn't what you asked, you have asked "How can I justify being friends with people who have held racist, sexist or homophobic views who aren't family.' Truth be told, what ever answer I give you will be dismissed as bullshit hand waving.

As I said, I was brought up to love everyone, and while I may not agree with their views, and think them pretty harmful, immature and dangerous to hold or express those views I don't think that are appropriate in this day and age, to turn my back on them is not really some thing I would do. Again, I have many friends, some I see often, others I rarely see at all. Some are from a bygone era of my life, and others I've just met.

You have no problems casting aside people who don't align with your values, a fact that baffles me is how I have survived for so long, given I am almost a polar opposite to you. The fact you question my commitment to the LBQTI movement is sound, because I don't go to rallies, I only have friends who identifies as part of that group and regardless of anyones sexuality respect is given, and rarely has to be earned. I can not control what other people say or act and will not let it effect me. I won't cut some one out of my life if 95% they are a decent person with 5% negative traits. Is it a privilege I can be friends with anyone regardless? Perhaps, but it is a privilege you have gifted me with your own thoughts and attitudes towards other people. I can only choose how I interact with others, and I choose to love and respect everyone, regardless of who they think is good

Pat

Thank you for giving me an honest answer I'm not sure where to move forward from here because I don't think I can morally accept that. I also don't hold the belief that it's ok to hate people for the sake of what they believe in I don't hate people that think I'm going to burn in hell for eternity or that think people like me or people of colour are less than them. I also pity them. The difference is I can accept that both those things are not mutually exclusive I can quite easily not have someone in my life and not hate them or wish them any harm but in order to respect my own health and well-being I can't have them in my life and that is the difference

There is a very famous quote that says "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" and as much as you can't see it by allowing these people to be part of your inner circle is to accept their beliefs regardless of whether you choose to in them or not.

Yeah at this point in time in my life I can't have people in my life that are not for me 100% and I know you think that is a different thing but from the feedback that I've gotten after speaking to people that I'm close with an to a couple of my mental health professionals about it they agree with me which makes me feel like I'm not overreacting even though you may feel like I am. I cannot accept for my own self-respect that you would choose to let people into your life who think so poorly of people in the LGBTQIA + community and think that that is acceptable regardless of what you were taught growing up I grew up with a racist, homophobic piece of shit father who tried to raise me the same way and I got to an age where I knew that that was not acceptable. I hope one day you decide not to sit on the fence about these sorts of issues and actually take a stand against intolerance and hatred not just for other people but for yourself and your own moral well-being.

I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to share private conversations with strangers without your friend's consent.

That aside, assuming that your religious friends do go around being hateful -- I don't think disassociating with people who engage in hateful acts means you yourself have to hate them, or even stop loving them in your own way. It depends on what they've done and are prepared to do about the things they believe. If they have a private disgust for homosexuality but are generally tolerant, that's one thing. But if they're landlords who refuse to grant housing to any man who is slightly more effeminate than the norm, or guys who show up to Republican rallies with signs that read "God hates fags", then I would tend to agree with Pat.

That is fair about the consent part.

Thank you for her thoughts on the matter.

Justine's comment is stellar.

oops... i guess i *DID* already post a respone, but this was an abandoned version??? (and now reading ALL the postings added in the past few days!)

(a few new thoughts appearing below, but not really a drastic departure from many of the other comments...)

In my opinion, you are not a hypocrite.

Let's say you are friends with everyone... so: have a white friend that hates blacks. and have a black friend that hates white. It might be complicated and awkward, no? But for the white and the black... THEY are the ones who are hypocrites, to be friends with you, but you don't hate the other color? So... they must try to make you like them... don't be friends with the other. (because YOU are a hypocrite...because nobody wants to be called a hypocrite)

Does THIS make any sense? Oddly enough, typed this up DAYS ago, and just now realized it was unfinished and unsent...

sorry matty87... because i ASSumed the religious people were the intolerant ones...

Sums up a good amount of growing up for me

Find what balance you can and take Justines comment and see how to apply it with action.

Have you spoken with all the parties involved since you read theses responses?

Have have grown up within the Christian community and there are groups which like our community that accept Gays, Lesbian etc. Where I live in the bush near Ballarat there is a very large Gay/ Lesbian community and most of my neigbours are Gay/ Lesbians. I have no problem with this at all. The local council even promotes this for the Lesbian and Gay Festival in March each year over the long weekend (Labour Day / Vic / Oz). So its a full on Gay Party for those interested and all rental places and Hotels are booked out over 6 months in advance. There are even several websites just for this. The Local Council has this on their web page as does the Gay/ Lesbian community. If anyone wants more info just 'friend" me and I can send lists of sites.

Flora your cousin has forgotten one thing - Love they neighbour as yourself - John 2 - 14.

The one who called me a hypocrite and said I have a privilege to be friends with anyone I choose decided to end our friendship and I haven't heard from her since. She did state that due to her mental health, she needed people to back her 100% which I understand to a degree, but saying to some one they don't support you when they have in the past is kind of harsh.

Flora, I'm so very sorry you had to go through that, While I'm lucky to a degree that my most of my religious friends haven't been very outward negative in some regards, it does boil down to a don't ask don't tell.

NCGreg, all good. I find it some what interesting the ones preaching for tolerance are some times (not always) intolerant of others. Pat has on more than occasion labled people as idiot and assholes, and I'm sorry but no one is better than anyone else in the collective hol polloi