Perfectly stated.


We do sorta have this. The original purpose of The List was to provide a framework for customers to leave reviews and ratings about these customs services. I approve positive and negative reviews alike, and producers can always add a response to any negative review. They can't rate customers.

BTW the list isn't really for "Trusted" customs producers; It's for customs producers who haven't fallen off the face of the earth and who still seem to be operating in good faith, even if their business acumen isn't all that great. That's what the reviews and 5-heart rating system is there for. ALL these producers have trouble from time to time, but you only get removed if I start to believe that you no longer have the customers' interest at heart.

Thank you to everyone who has contacted me since Sunday with your stories of customs or refunds that are owed to you. Keep 'em coming. I likely won't respond for a few days until I can get my own arms wrapped around all this. Some patterns seem to be emerging....

Peace,
Messmaster

I like the idea of 50% up front. I know people who sell things outside of WAM and do commissions AKA customs. Each of them requires 50% non-refundable up front. That allows for anything supply wise that would need to be purchased if it is not in stock already and it also makes sure that the person is serious about the commission. I am sure that there are people who want customs on here that think they should get them for the 50 dollar range instead of the 200 to 300 dollar range it should be. There are communities on Facebook where these commissions are arranged. The admins all talk with each other. If there is someone who does not provide a commission they are immediately black listed from all the groups. The groups keep an updated list people who back out of commissions and also people who disappear after the first 50%. With it being non refundable, it is amazing how many people pay the 50% and then never pay for the finished product. The person who has already started on the commission or is almost done, then has the option to sell the piece for the difference between what they have received and what the total is. While there have been a few slip through the cracks, with the people doing the commissions, knowing that the group is a major source of commissions and their business being in commissions there is more pressure on them to be straight with people. There are far worse consequences by being someone who takes commissions and getting black listed than there are for someone buying a product who falls on hard times and can't pay.

This is why reviews are SOOO important. If you are looking for a custom and not sure about who to get it from finding reviews would be a great option. I think a section of the site for reviews would be a great tool. I have seen reviews in the non wam, I have seen them in wetlook and messy. The review should have the name of the producer in the subject line. There should also be guidelines as to what needs to be in the review. Communication, completion time, cost, satisfaction etc. I have read reviews where there are parts of the script that were missed but that because of the experience of the producer it ended up being better.

I think that putting responsibility on MM to try to work out issues is a lot to ask. As a consumer it is up to you to do your due diligence before starting a custom. I also think there is nothing wrong with having an area with the list of producers who have had issues with customs. If I was looking for a custom I have no way of knowing if there have been issues with the delivery of a custom, be it bad communication, time, not the intended product etc. If you don't want to be on the issue list, then don't do bad customs.

I have never thought of a "pop up model" as a producer. Even one who shows up and does a few customs. Doing a few customs doesn't even necessarily make you a "producer."

At that point as some have said, it's up to the customer to do their due diligence.

If someone has done 10 CUSTOMS with no complaints that's generally a good sign you're not going to get screwed. If they have done only a few, that is no guarantee you are not going to get screwed.

No way is perfect. People find ways to abuse everything. But again, a one sheet, easy to understand boilerplate contract with specifics and time frame I still think is the easiest and most effective with producer and customer keeping communication open if there IS a problem.

The problem is that it's easy for customers to respawn under a different name. "Oh, Flank ripped you off by not paying for his custom? That sucks, but I'm a brand new customer called Flonk, and you can trust me!"

The producers might know each customer's real name (e.g. based on paying a deposit), but I think that has to be kept confidential rather than posted on a public forum.

As a customer, I can see a potential benefit in asking producers for a reference, particularly if I'm trying to organise an elaborate/expensive scene. ("If you ask X, they'll vouch for me paying on time.") That would be similar to the arrangement when you rent a property and list your previous landlords.

I also think it's a good idea to track reputation on customers.

Like if a customer has paid for 3 or 4 customs already, and then proposes an idea, the producer can feel more comfortable investing time to provide a quote on the idea knowing the customer will likely follow through, vs people who ask about customs but arn't actually interested in paying for them.

I may have the wrong viewpoint on things, there aren't really titles or degrees with this. I mean technically if I put money behind a kickstarter I can get a credit as a producer. I don't have fuck all to do with the final outcome of the project other than throwing money at them. Still they list me as a producer if I pay them to. Another way to look at a producer is someone who created, edited and released content. They produced a result of content. Because the term producer is so interchangeable there is no way to tell apart a professional from an amateur from a first timer doing their first video. There is definitely a difference in the quality of the product that you can tell by watching it. I wish that there was a way to tell the difference. For example with Degrees. You go give a commencement speech and you are usually given a bachelors degree from the college. However, they call it an honorary degree to differentiate it from a full fledged degree. In other professions the term intern is tossed around for people who are just getting started and haven't cut their chops so to say. But with anything dealing with performing it is cut and dry. I try out for a local play and get a bit role with a few speaking parts and all of a sudden I am an actor. I am by no means as good as the lead who is also an actor or someone like Tom Hanks, but I am still called an actor.

Maybe we could start something to identify producers. Something like established producer, amateur producer and probie producer.

Or just "Known Producer Who Doesn't Screw Over Customers" although that may not fit on a business card.

I know what you're getting at, but as far as the WAM scene is concerned, anyone who makes content to sell is a producer, all the way from professional outfits with their own studios and long-proven track records, to just arrived last week solo-girl models shooting in their bathtubs on their iPhones. Hence the approved list, to at least try and reduce the most blatant scam vectors.

Customs are unlike anything else you want to try and compare it to. In any other business transaction, there's a remedy if you're ripped off or don't receive the contracted service. To take it to the extreme, you can file in small claims court. In other instances you'll simply receive a refund without much of a hassle.

Not when you're dealing with anonymous entities/people. The producers and models with the best intentions can suddenly go south. They receive the money, spend it on bills, then something happens where they can't make the video. It would be simply to refund the money, but it's gone.

There is no recourse, and they know it. You're 8 states away, don't know their name and you're screwed.

I have been screwed both by big name producers and big name models. This may come as a total shock to many of you, but far too many people in the fetish business deal with serious issues from drug addition to bi-polar, depression, etc..

Because of this, you can work with the same model and get 8 customs in a row flawlessly, then get totally burned on the 9th.

The last issue you're dealing with is worth ethic. There's a reason the entire world gets paid after they work. You work a week, then get paid. Let your mind wander as to what would happen if companies paid upfront.

It's human nature to want to work to get paid. The issue is when you get paid but haven't worked yet. Then, the money's in your pocket and you're "back-burnered" by far too many people. Their drive is gone, so it no longer matters to them if you get your custom in a day, week or month.

To paraphrase the great movie "Johnny Dangerously"........they can do that once.......once.

Couldn't resist, sorry not sorry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad9mlvyA84E

Interesting thread. My perspective as someone familiar with business litgation. If you are ordering customs for a fetish product, there is a decent chance you will get ripped off or, at least, come out of the transaction unsatisfied. Numerous reasons for that that have been raised already. However, let me focus on contracts and breach. If you have a contract, it probably has ambiguities, etc. In short, it probably sucks. You think it will protect you, but there is a good chance it won't. Did you lay out everything clearly, including timeline? Is there a jurisdiction provision in there? etc.
OK, you have a decent contract. Say you pay $400 for a custom and the "producer" ghosts you. What can you do? Are you going to take that person to court for breach of contract? Probably not-- do you really want to take a day off work to argue in public that you paid good money for a pie in the face fetish video and the person bailed? Ehhhhh. But let's say you file a complaint in small claims and get a default judgment in the amount you are seeking. Good chance of that. Great! Now you have to collect. You are in Arkansas and the producer is in California. Not only that, the producer used an alias and a fake address. You are, in short, SOL.
See, the thing is, there are people out there who know all this instinctively. They know you don't want to sue them. To go public. Thank God we are a really niche fetish or, i guarantee, there would be more sharks out there. But I would guess most of the issues with customs don't involve people seeking to rip off others. They probably start off with good intentions, but people procrastinate. People are lazy. People forget. Before you know it you are having issues with a custom.
In short. Reviews and COD. Reviews to warn others and money on receipt of video because that is the only way to ensure that the buyer gets what they paid for.

CKCP. Yep.

And my suggestion of the simple one pager boilerplate was not for legal purposes.

It was for UMD purposes...to prevent someone from getting ripped off...a SECOND time.

Robby

Echoing my comment in another thread, some of the "approved customs" stores haven't updated in several years, so the people involved have probably moved onto other things. Maybe it would be worth having some kind of renewal option, e.g. once a year the producer has to click a button to say that they're still offering customs; if they don't click the button then the site gets taken off the approved list until they do. (It would then make sense to prompt people a month or so in advance, similar to a warning that your password is going to expire soon.)

This!!
Perhaps something similar to prompt them to update which models are offering customs as well. Theres a lot of models wiith "offers customs" in peoples stores who are retired.

While it'll never be burn-proof, you can minimize your risk. Here are some red flags when I go to order a custom:

1) Has not recently posted on their social accounts or are not very active. I like to see at least three posts a week.

2) Social accounts are new.

3) Hard to find their contact info. This is a big flag for me. Models/studios who do a lot of customs make it very easy to contact them. If there's no email, DM's turned off, etc...that's a flag.

4) Girls/studios who do not reply immediately. But that I mean within 24 hours. You're busy? Good to know - you're also too busy to take on my custom. A much larger flag is "hey, really sorry, I don't check my email/DM often." Run away from that crap like it's the plague.

5) Anyone without a Twitter. I've learned never to do business with girls who just have an IG account, especially if it's private.

6) Anyone without examples of their work. I'm looking for a clip store or anywhere I can see what you've produced. You might not get burned by these girls, but you might get a clip filmed in a dark room with a 2010 Nokia with a frame rate of 240.

7) Anyone trying to hide their full appearance. Their social accounts should have plenty of photos/vids of them - face and fully body, without using filters.

8) Findom. Stay as far away from these models as you possibly can.

In a nutshell, you're far less likely to get burned when you're dealing with girls/studios who are on their game - huge social media presence, posting very often, a lot of followers, contact info in their profile and responds quickly. Anything except for that, prepare to get fucked.