Trump is facing 37 FEDERAL charges for the documents! Holy Batshit! Add this to the 30+ felonies he's been indicted for in New York. Goddamn, is there any law he hasn't broken?!

I love all of this for him!!! Before people start in, Yes Biden is being investigated for the documents found at his house. Yes the investigation is taking a long time just like Trump's did. Yes if warranted he will be asked to testify.

There are a few differences with the cases. One of the differences is the documents themselves. Trump's documents had been illegally copied and taken to Mar A Lago. The documents do not usually have that white border, a copy machine does that because of margins where the original documents do not have that. The other part is the willingness to cooperate. Biden did not require a warrant to let the FBI come in and take the documents. Also to our knowledge Biden has not tried to hide the documents or the fact he took them.

At the end of the day, both committed a crime and both should receive equal justice based on the crimes they have in common. Biden did not violate the espionage act however.

I'm not Trump fan, but it's funny to me how everyone is after him when Bush, Clinton (both of em), Obama, and so many other cabinet members have done SO much shit that's worthy of investigation and probably trials.

Just look at this mother fucker.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/06/the-elite-dont-want-to-talk-about-henry-kissingers-party.html

This lich will somehow hold on for several more years while people continue to die violently in other countries he's played a major hand in destroying.

https://twitter.com/didkissingerd1e?lang=en

Just about sums it up.

Looks like there was plenty of reading material for when taking a dump in the bathroom

This cracked me tf up though

Yeah, and we can talk about that asshole in a thread about him, so why are you switching the subject?

I live in Scotland, not the US, so I hesitate to enter here.
But, believe me, our media covers US politics daily.
I just worry about democracy.
Shouldn't Trump's indictment be about the facts of the charges?
Did he, or did he not, break Federal Law?
It doesn't matter what side you are on, should it not still be possible to examine the facts?
I worry about democracy because democracy relies on both sides sharing an acceptance of facts.
Whether you win an election or you lose.
I worry, and I am getting more and more worried.
Peter

I'm interested in what Potatoman and Sure are saying, because I think there's probably a better way of having that conversation.

To me, on the one hand, there's nothing funny about any part of this situation. American politics has been fucked for longer than I've been alive, and I'm not a fan of downplaying that or making light of it. And a big part of that is that public figures kinda have been above the law. Bush W started a torture program, Obama's administration oversaw the extrajudicial killings of American citizens (see e.g. https://www.aclu.org/cases/al-aulaqi-v-panetta-constitutional-challenge-killing-three-us-citizens?redirect=targetedkillings), Kissinger is a living embodiment of evil, and of course Trump is a fascist. So far, none of them have paid the appropriate price.

But I think Sure is right to draw a line in the sand. Like, let's be adults about this and face facts. Bush is never going to be prosecuted. Obama is never going to be prosecuted. Kissinger is gonna die any day now. But someone has to be prosecuted if anything is ever going to change, and Trump practically volunteered. So I don't really think there's anything fishy or off or wrong (or "funny") about going after him even though we haven't really gone after anyone else.

To me, if we wait for a perfect moment, it'll never come. I totally agree that we missed some opportunities to do things right in the past, but it seems totally insane to me to say, "Well, therefore we should also not do things right this time." The bottom line is that someone needs to break the cycle and end up in jail, and right now Trump is that guy.

Yes Bush committed crimes as president. Major war crimes, lying to congress etc. Everyone was afraid to go after him. Clinton is why 9/11 happened, but no one will go after him for his crimes. Also, that death count the Clinton's have, they are almost as deadly as LBJ, people afraid of dying if they go after them. Obama, I do not know of his crimes. Hillary, you guys had a chance to prosecute her and chose not to. So all these what about's were not indicted because no one went after them. Also slight difference with Trump, his crimes happened after he left office and was a general citizen. Biden's documents would have to be proven there for the Trump years. Also, Biden's investigation is not done yet and so they cannot recommend charges until it is finished.

I'm interested in having a conversation about Trump's indictments because that's the topic of the thread. Changing the topic is a whataboutism, and reflects an unwillingness or inability to stay focused. That in itself is a problem. I think people find it easy or comforting to lose focus when a topic is stressful, and while this reaction is something we can empathize with, it suggests that this guy thinks the conversation isn't even worth having. In this context that's not productive and it's pretty low effort.

I would disagree. It does not take away from the impact of things. Find me a news site that has not used "First time in US history". That is the magnitude of this. When you look at Trump's crimes and compare them with those who did not face charges for what they did, in my mind it adds something to the degree of seriousness of the charges. The fact that we know we have had warmongers, rapists, murderers etc as presidents and they did not face charges, the fact that Trump is, is something. I mean 37 in a row is a decent number.

Well, I for one would be interested in hearing whether Potatoman really is uninterested in talking about Trump. I hope he tells us. (And if he *is* interested, I hope he, like, does actually talk about him.)

Because I think you're right: Trump is the subject of this conversation, rightfully so, and the best thing that can happen right now is for the justice system to focus on him until he's convicted and jailed for the rest of his natural life. I'd also tend to agree with dalamar that Trump's crimes are *so* blatant and *so* clumsy and *so* indefensible that they deserve the special attention that they're getting. Every other philosophical or theoretical conversation is secondary to that reality right now.

I would be fine if we wanted to do a Trump comparison or something, if it somehow stayed on track. But I don't think it would be illuminating. For instance: no, Trump isn't as bad as Kissinger, as far as body count is concerned. Kissinger really is a war criminal, and he should be in jail. But what does this tell us about the political or moral significance of Trump's indictment? Nothing, as far as I can tell. Rather, it seems like a better explanation is that this is yet another transparent attempt to change the subject, using the vernacular: "whatabout x, whatabout y, whatabout z?"

Nope not changing the topic at all. Were it comparisons between Kissinger and Bush, that would be trying to change the topic. Discussing all the people the Clintons have had killed would be changing the topic. As long as the comparisons are with Trump it is on topic. To be technical you discussing what is on topic and off topic has changed the topic of the thread. Instead of the indictments which is the point of the thread, we are discussing what is considered on topic.

I am surprised he was not considered a flight risk. I still expect him to try to find a way to avoid the charges.

One of the things I found interesting was an interview with someone in the court room I saw. They talked about how it was not the Trump they were used to. There was no grandstanding, there was nothing like you would see on the campaign trail or while he was president. That he was quiet and everything. Is that a sign that the gravity of this has settled in? Is he defeated in this because of how many lawyers he has went through? That he is having a hard time keeping council. I heard reported that he is losing his lawyers because of defense strategies. Does this mean that his lawyers have watched the sanctions against lawyers that believed Trump's election crap and so they are not as willing to follow his whims. That they do not want to risk any censuring or risk to their license to practice? Is it that they think he is guilty and are trying to present the best possible defense and Trump won't let them present a logical defense but focus on rumors and conspiracy theories.

I very much doubt it. What you're describing is very normal behavior for narcissists like Trump. When they sense vulnerability, they become extremely aggressive, sometimes even to the point of having like a manic or hyperactive energy. On the other hand, when they sense that their opponent has more power, they can become very soft-seeming and even ingratiating.

But none of that means that he has somehow stopped being a narcissist. He still hasn't learned the difference between right and wrong, he still doesn't understand why he's guilty of a crime or what it means to be a criminal, and nothing has "settled in." This is just his way of fighting someone who's stronger than he is: go quiet and make himself seem as non-threatening and uninteresting as possible.

If you don't believe me, look up the video of his deposition in the E. Jean Carroll case. It's the same story: his tone of voice is more modulated, his manner is almost sleepy, and he says as little as he can get away with. And then, after that case was done, he went back and attacked her in public again, so stupidly and so carelessly that she's now going back to court to beat him a second time. I guarantee the same thing will happen in the federal trial. He won't change. He can't change. With someone who has Trump's mental disorder, there are only two possible outcomes: he successfully plays possum until we let him go, at which point he goes back to being a sicko in public; or we put him in jail where he belongs. Any other idea - about him "figuring it out" or whatever - is a fantasy.

...and since that's the invitation Potato guy was making, it was a change in topic. Glad you agree it was good to nip it in the bud.


All of my posts pointed back to, and reinforced the importance of, a conversation about Trump's historic indictments. It is absurd to suggest that "let's talk about Trump, actually" is irrelevant to the topic of Trump. But thank you for contributing to the content of the thread in your latest reply.

I think Niven is right in his assessment. Trump's defence is weak (he says the boxes piled up in his bathroom were planted there, apparently). Even Bill Barr is saying the case against him is serious, and Barr is a grifter. He'll play possum until the pressure is up, or until the media cycle can focus in on some other silly thing, like Hunter Biden's dick picks or whatever, and then he'll ride that wave as if he weren't widely regarded as a felon by informed parties.

I don't have high hopes about this case resolving against Trump, incidentally. The judge is his former attorney. He'll never see any jail time or any punishment for anything he ever does.

Everything that comes out of Trump's mouth is brazen lies and BS, and we should not put up with it. It's just so obvious, yet his supporters want to give their emperor some clothes which is the biggest threat to democracy (more so than Putin and China), and much as I can also understand why his supporters don't want to support anyone else. It's just madness. Besides which, the sight and sound of him gives me the creeps and makes me feel sick, just like Jimmy Saville (people in the UK will know what I mean).

Just wait until everyone sees how bad President DeSantis is...