I think this is an interesting topic and was looking forward to a discussion.

I think this is the topic that I have some of the strongest feelings about. I believe in every person's right to leave this existence at the time and place of their choosing and for reasons that are their own should they choose to share. I know that there are real mental health issues and that they can be helped by talking to a professional about them and getting help. I also know that the quality of life is a huge thing that gets left out of the discussion. People are so afraid of death that they do not want anyone to die and that everyone must live no matter what.

There is no one size fits all answer to this situation. I do think that laws need to change so that there is a path for someone that wants to leave this existence. I also think that there needs to be the ability for people to get assistance in this if they are unable to do it themselves. I can see where medical issues and some of the things that can come with that would lead someone to want to end their life. I have medical issues that should they become worse, I have a plan with my girlfriend. I will get to say any goodbyes and then she will drive me to a designated place with a method of my choosing and give me a 10 minute head start before calling the authorities to report it.

The way that we treat people who attempt suicide or the way that we talk about people who commit suicide is absolutely disgusting. All the why didn't they reach out bullshit. Or the I wish they would have called. People act like they are in any place to really help people who are having issues in any kind of capacity. These same people also wouldn't know someone reaching out to talk if they bit them in the ass. The mental health care system in the U.S. is a joke and it is extremely hard to find decent therapists who are not motivated by some agenda or let their personal beliefs impact the care they provide. We don't know the quality of life people have and we do not know what they are going through. Just because we think that we could deal with it or that is no big deal does not mean that is how it is for everyone. After so many attempts I think there needs to be a way for them to get some assistance so that it can be a success. Depending on the measures they try there is all kinds of damage that they can do that makes a bad situation even worse in the long run.

Then we have the people that have other medical issues such as cancer or other life ending diseases. We are so selfish we want these people to suffer in pain, agony, and all kinds of inhuman situations just so they can be alive because we will miss them. It has nothing to do with the quality of life they have or what their day to day looks like. They have to stay alive for us because we can't bare the pain that their death would cause US, the pain of the person suffering be damned. If you think it is a sad situation watching someone who was an athlete for example deteriorate to nothing but skin and bones, think of how they must feel. People who are sick know what they look like and know how they feel. But they are told to put on a brave face for their fucking family and friends because once again it is the people that are left alive after the person dies who's feelings matter more than the person actually going through the situation.

People also talk about suicide like it is an easy decision like the Pepsi or Coke challenge and that is not the case. There are all kinds of emotions that go with it. It is not an easy thing knowing that this is finally it. The decision has been made and there is no other hope. That you have tried to reach out but you are in so much pain emotionally or physically that it has taken its tole. All the Dr. visits being told to keep your head up. Life will get better. One day at a time. For all of it to be bullshit. The realization that all those people who are supposed to be there to help you have more important things to do. But don't worry they will like your post about reaching out and they will tell you to call them any time night or day. Until you do and something else takes precedence.

I agree with everything you've said dalamar66.
I think my main issue is when people say things like there's always help if you need it' for mental health when that clearly isn't true in any way.
The user-friendly face of the right to die campaign only looks at the situations of people who are terminally ill.. but there is an argument for those who feel that they didn't choose life and don't want it, being allowed to leave in a dignified way (Just want to make clear I'm not an antinatalist!!)
I have to be careful as have made my feelings on all this public before and got into shitloads of trouble for it!!

I agree with much of what you said. It also isn't for anyone to judge anyone else's motives or reasons for wanting to end their lives. However, I think that we are talking about 2 very different issues. When you have cancer or other medical issues, I believe that a reasoned decision can be made to no longer subject yourself to the pain, incapacity, etc. However, with mental health issues, the decision to end your life can be brought on by shame, disillusionment, all things that can be changed. This is a difficult topic, because you can't really know how another person is suffering. However, I have both suffered from depression and thoughts of suicide and I have lost someone dear to suicide. For the friend that I lost, I can't help but feel that the things that caused him pain could have been changed. I also feel that he left people like me and his daughter with a pain we can't ever let go of.

Hi Dalamar666
I have read through your post and absolutely agree that there is no one size fits all. I am assuming you are in the US but if I am incorrect please correct me on this because there are different rules in some countries (and this is an International site. I am in the UK).
Despite your acknowledgement that there is "no one size fits all," there are some huge generalisations.
"The way that we treat people who attempt suicide or the way that we talk about people who commit suicide is absolutely disgusting. All the why didn't they reach out bullshit. Or the I wish they would have called. People act like they are in any place to really help people who are having issues in any kind of capacity. These same people also wouldn't know someone reaching out to talk if they bit them in the ass"
The questions you mentioned in the paragraph above may legitimately be asked as part of some-ones grief. Askin , "All the why didn't they reach out bullshit. Or the I wish they would have called,"is only natural as we often feel guilty. Yes they also can form part of inappropriate comments in some cases but we need to be careful assuming others lack the ability to recognise someone reaching out.
I agree that suicide is not an easy decision but neither is it inevitable. This is not an easy subject. At the beginning of your post, you mention "every person's right to leave this existence at the time and place of their choosing and for reasons that are their own should they choose to share." Even that statement is not as straightforward as it initially seems. Should it have a lower age limit for example?
I agree you should have the right to express your feelings and I agree with some of your views. I would ask anyone posting here to remember this is a sensitive issue and the need to be respectful. Some may be very close to this issue right now or could be grieving.

As someone who lost a dear friend to suicide, I ask you not to dismiss the "I wish they would have called" sentiment as bullshit. I lost someone more than 20 years ago to suicide. I don't judge him, but yes I wish he would have reached out to me before he killed himself. I would have done anything to have him here now. Yes I know that's selfish, but for those who are left behind after someone who commits suicide, there is a lot of pain, regrets and recriminations and just plain missing the person that we've lost.

I'm really sorry you lost your friend, that's really awful. It is, of course THE MOST sensitive and emotive subject but playing devil's advocate I want to put the question out there if someone suicidal did reach out to you, or just reached out generally before going ahead and taking their own life, what would you do? Do you think you could change their mind or make a difference? Maybe it would end up making you feel worse in the end.. especially if they reached out to you, then ended up doing it anyway.. you may be left feeling somehow at fault for not 'rescuing' them.
Just one experience I had exactly a year ago. My bpd means I do have suicidal ideation at times. Last year at an appointment with a mental health nurse, I walked out of the appointment telling her I was going to go and jump off a bridge.. she didn't chase after me, didn't stop me and didn't even phone to see if I was ok..
Maybe some people who end up in this dark place have reached out to people and it's got them nowhere.

All life is precious. Anybody I mean anybody I come across, even if they are a total stranger I help them survive. Suicide is not an answer nor a solution. It is an end.

Having attempted suicide myself., getting the help, healing and now helping others.

If someone is sick, suffering, end of life and they are in pain yes, but helping someone...

You know no. This is no too much

God I really don't have all the answers. I have a friend now, of over 30 years who has reached out to me in the past saying that he wants to end it. I let him know that I'm here, I've gone to be with him and helped anyway that I could. Of course I know that I can't stop him. I am glad he's still here.
Again I don't judge people who have decided to end their own lives. I know many of them have reached out for help but no one answered. I just try to do the best I can for the people in my life.

Hi Flora
I know this wasn't addressed to me but hope you don't mind if I reply. A close family member threatened suicide and I offered support but it didn't change the situation. I spoke to their Dr about possible sectioning and they asked them to come in and talk. I made a police report about some associated issues. They are still with us today. Did I make a difference? Maybe.
I also had someone on the phone I didn't know personally tell me they would kill themselves. I followed my employers protocols and they did not carry it through. I do not know what happened to your mental health nurse but would have expected them to have ad procedures to follow.
Whether we help or not we can never be totally sure if outcomes would have changed. We can only do what we feel is right at the time

Well said. I would want to try something to help someone threatening to end their life, even if ultimately they do it anyway.

Thank you all for the replies and for your experiences. This is a very difficult topic to discuss I agree.

With folks that people have known that ended their life and the feelings after, are they the same feelings if they would have been in an accident of some kind and that was their end?

I know that I have a different view on death than a lot of people. I have yet to mourn a person that I know who has died. I have had many friends and family who have died and in some cases very young. There have been cases when I have looked at their deaths as an end to their suffering.

Maxcd, yes I live in the U.S. The lower age limit is an interesting and difficult question. I think there are times that we put people under more stress than what their bodies can handle emotionally and that there is more that we can do. Right now I look at the struggles of the LGBTQIA youth and some of the things they are put through. I know of situations 3rd hand where parents have kicked their kid out of their house and disowned them for coming out to them as their true self. I have heard horror stories about some of the conversion therapy situations that have happened. The struggles that you are told by your religious beliefs you are going to hell for who you are and having to come to terms with that and deal with those emotions all while being a teenager going through all the normal emotions of being a teen and adding that to it. That is a huge burden that we put on young people. It also makes me think of a young girl in my lifetime that was bullied so bad by people at school that she took her own life before she made it to her teen years. She was made to feel that because of her skin color she was less than human and did not deserve to live. Teachers and administration knew of the bullying and did nothing. Some of the teachers added to the harm that was being done. The parents filed lawsuits against the school district, but there were no criminal charges ever filed. None of the teachers that participated in the bullying were ever disciplined. Nothing happened to the kids that bullied this girl. All of their lives went forward as if the incident never happened in the first place. If you are someone that is a contributing factor to a minor ending their life, I think that you should face criminal charges. There is absolutely a difference between a minor ending their life and an adult ending their life. But, I know that there will never be laws associated with that. There is this odd shift that happens from sympathy for the people who take their life to the people that are contributing factors. I have yet to see a parent that disowned their child not play the victim if their disowned child ends their life.

The dismissive attitude with the medical community is unfortunately all too common. I have heard people be dismissive and say it was a cry for help. Then if the person does not go through with it the medical person has a feeling of justification and that they called the situation right. In the situations where people ask for help and it is not given, should there be consequences for the medical professionals that were complacent in those situations? Or does it become one of those situations where we give more sympathy to them than the person who ended their lives and make ourselves feel better by saying they will have to live the rest of their life with that knowledge and that is punishment enough? Not that their medical malpractice was an issue. Not that they will do the same thing to the next person. But rely on guilt to deal out consequences.

Dalamar666
In regards to your question - With folks that people have known that ended their life and the feelings after, are they the same feelings if they would have been in an accident of some kind and that was their end?

I believe it is different. If it was an accident or illness, of course you miss them just the same, but right or wrong, you don't have the feeling of wishing that you could have saved them, wondering if you could have done more, etc. There isn't such a strong sense of personal responsibility.

There have been lots of great responses in this forum. I agree this takes a very nuanced approach with an extremely heavy dose of empathy to get right. People can often struggle to see things from another's perspective, have their own belief systems and of course grief.

First on beliefs; you might not share them but you should respect them. Remember they believe this to be true with every fiber of their being. Try to keep that in mind when having the conversation if you can.

Second point was quality of life. My personal opinion here is quality of life is everything. I have lost people I love to suicide, accidents and palliative care. None of them are easy. They all hurt. Sometimes it's better to let things go. If you can help the situation then by all means try, but don't make it worse or guilt people. As hard as it might be you may have to have a matter of fact conversation and try to put your emotions to the side. This is where the empathy comes. To me it is no different than putting down a beloved pet. I hate it. I also hate seeing great people I love wasting away in a hospital. I visit them even though I don't want to remember them that way but to comfort them. It's not for me but them.

As somebody who has availed herself of some of that mental health help, I want to be careful about younger people. At sixteen, some of the things that threw me into a depressed, crying funk as a teenager are laughable today.

A relative of mine is now going through the hell of wondering why his son shot himself. I don't know the answer either, but he wasn't even 20 years old yet.

But I'm 100% with you on the idea of a planned, consciously-made, well-thought-out death. As I get older and older, it has dawned on me that should I come down with some horrible condition that isn't going to kill me on its own in a timely manner, but is going to be painful as the devil and incapacitate me early, there really probably won't be anybody else around to take care of me.

Or the country I live in could fall apart. I'm in America. 'Nuff said. I'll know in a year or two.

Or worse, there could be war. Now look at Gaza. All politics aside, it's totally uninhabitable. If something like that comes here, why exactly should I bother to live through it?

It'd be nice if, when you're at least 50 years old, you could just order a suicide kit legally and with no social shaming. I would hide mine somewhere in the house.

Nessie

I really like the idea of a suicide kit Nessie. With instructional videos and everything. But I would add a stipulation. That the kit would have to be stored at a safety deposit box of some sort. I see too many deaths because of improperly stored guns. In the states we have forced gun manufacturers to provide a lock with every gun that is sold. But we cannot force owners to properly store them. Then when someone discovers the gun and plays around with it and kills themselves or others we do not hold the owner of the gun accountable. We go back to the guilt punishment or they have been through enough. With the proper care and caution I think a suicide kit could be very useful. It reminds me of Dr. Kevorkian and his assisted suicide van. In a world where assisted suicide is a demonized practice, he really gave his patients an option. Unfortunately, he did not take enough precautions and the grieving families of his patients were allowed to twist things and he was convicted of murder.

Oh, absolutely. You got that right. I'm still wondering where that boy I mentioned got that gun. Obviously something wasn't locked up good enough.

A lockbox and a key is not too much to ask.

And we should take the time to leave a note to those who care about us. That's only fair to them.

Nessie

As Loch_Ness said:
"As somebody who has availed herself of some of that mental health help, I want to be careful about younger people. At sixteen, some of the things that threw me into a depressed, crying funk as a teenager are laughable today."

YES! This is very much what Im talking about. Sometimes suicide is a matter of getting into a state of mind where you see no way out. Talking to someone and getting out of your own head can often help you to see that there are other options. This goes for young people as well as adults.

I've dealt with suicide about 6 times at this point in my life and it's something that got me thinking about end of life issues.

One thing I've noticed about myself is my friend Alan died of leukemia last year and he and me through notes a topics like this. Life the beauty of it the sort amount of time we have. How loss affects all of us. When I called him one day after having a nightmare about a friend of died of suicide his wife picked and told me he died

So I weeped because I forgot to say goodbye I don't usually forget but this time I did

People deserve to choose but I'm not sure they always know those around may have their best interest at heart. Family yes at times you would think but sometimes money is the main factor like in Alan's case and not so much the man who got passed being an alcoholic and a friend and mentor.

This is probably the most heavy topic I come to wam to process

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WldXS4hY8mM
" The empty bodies stand at rest
Casualties of their own flesh
Afflicted by their dispossession
But nobody's ever knew
Nobody's
Nobody's felt like you
Nobody's
Love is suicide, love is suicide
Love is suicide, love is, ah
Now we drive the night, to the ironies of peace
You can't help deny forever
The tragedies reside in you
The secret sights hide in you
The lonely nights divide you in two, in two, in two
All my blisters now revealed
In the darkness of my dreams
In the spaces in between us
But nobody's ever knew"

When I was a teenager my godfather had a wife who was a paraplegic and she asked to die I remember I was on the swings
That was one of the first times I understood end of life issues

Kinda overwhelmed typing this may come back to it but this is unwinding me to pieces

So I suppose it's appropriately inappropriate

I don't post much but felt this thread is close to my heart. I had several years of my younger brother having mental health issues.then he became alcohol dependant. Spent years trying to get him help,even resuscitated him 3 times,kept him clean etc and tried giving him the best life I could. Some days I prayed god would take him. Knowing what I know now,I think euthanasia is a good thing,as long as its well thought out,within moral grounds. Hand on heart,I've seen suffering, and do think death can be a mercy depending on the circumstances