Chris, as I have read your posts in this thread and others you remind me of a friend of mine. They lived in Seattle. Seattle right now is a hot bed of far right and far left extremism. It is a gaslighting mess. My friend had to move out of Seattle to get away from that environment of constant gaslighting. It has made them a better person. Please consider doing the same.

This thread is not about you. Yet you have made it about you. This thread is about Penny, her feelings and saying goodbye. At least show an ounce of decency and respect that.

UMD/MM made the decision, and I understand the tough position he is in.

Go read the original post, which was started by Penny, politicizing the outcome of this entire thing. I have no sympathy for far left extremist "activist" who are seeking to destroying everyone and anyone that do not conform to their Borg mindset.

Yes, I deal with these people where I live everyday. They can shout loud and yell a lot. So can I.

They're not allegations - they're fact. I have the video.

That's slander. So quote me, or stop putting words in my mouth.

That word does not mean what you think it means.

Books. Try 'em. They're good. Educational and whatnot.

Slander? Seriously? I am just saying what everyone interpreted your Misogynistic Manifesto to read. Maybe you need to read your own word and try to interpret them yourself. Either way if you didn't get your law degree from watching Fox News you would learn what I typed was not ever close to slander but an opinion.

Alright, let's talk about misogyny. Cause it seems like to you everything is misogyny.

Here's what is misogyny to me (at least this was the definition when I was growing up and it still is). Examples:
- Believing women are inferior to men
- Believing women should have less rights then men (like voting, getting jobs, etc.)
- Treating women badly, and let's be specific: rape, molest, violence, etc. those kind of stuff that lands people in prison
- Abusing power dynamics to get sexual favors from women

Now, if I supported any of these points, show it to me. I did not.

Here's what misogyny by your standards. Examples:
- Wanting to determine facts especially in a "he said, she said" situation, and taking more time to deliberate and make a decision
- Concerned about the legitimacy of specific rulings because we know it's highly subjective and politicized these days
- Not immediately believing the victim
- Asking questions (to the victim), having a discussion and debate, especially if multiple perspectives are provided
- Being related to or continue doing business with the convicted person (guilt by association)
- Asking if it is warranted to go beyond the legal punishment already handed out
- Wanting the punishment to be proportionate to the crime
- Men are your customers, so try not to take it too far in insulting your customers
- Saying mean stuff or "mean tweets" or just factual observations that hurts people's feelings
- Not pledging to be "down with the patriarchy"
- "Activism" for more damage to this platform, when things have been by all objective standards resolved in your favor
- Lack of tolerance for anything but what they want

For crying out loud, some people are reacting like Leon is Harvey Weinstein (and we knew that piece of shit never got convicted... so much for the legal system).

Pure horseshit. None of this is based in reality. More political nonsense by the [pejorative removed -MM] who loves nothing more than to throw bombs in the UMD forum and cry for his mama when he gets called out on his pure, unadulterated horse manure.

What is evident here from MAGAChris is "The rules for me are not for thee". Another laundry list of Mindless MAGA talking points from our resident fuck-your-feelings you-hurt-my-feelings incel snowflake who blames all of his own problems on wimmins, libtards, simps, and George Soros.

Cry me a river, Mister Misunderstood. And for god's sake, start thinking. These posts are moronic, meaningless, used-toilet-paper political screeds not even a 6th grader would own up to.

Do better, or sit down.

Your Manifesto has been wiped from Umd so let's just go with what you have said. You have chosen to believe a man who in his own words felt up a model after a shoot. It isn't like there is a question the event happened. He testified to it under oath. Secondly, feeling like you a man should even have a right to question or judge a victim of a sexual assault. That is and of itself is holding yourself above a woman. The fact that you use terms like patriarch and man hating. The women in this group don't hate men. They hate men like you and how you are behaving. The fact that you can't see why we would not want someone who abused a woman or the people that hid it from this forum to be here just says to the women here that if this happens to you then we won't believe you or treat you as equals with respect. Then belittling women because they chose to do this to either have fun or make some extra money or both.

I did say this is a grey area "he said she said" situation, and given my life experience and the current political climate, I am inclined to believe him. Why? Because he pleaded guilty and he's not in prison. If it was as terrible as you said, we would not be having this conversation today and Leon would be behind bars.

Every person has the right to question and form an opinion and yes "judge" others. Our jury system allows both men and women to serve in such cases. Your ideas that only women can judge women is ridiculous and goes against the principles that founded our modern society, and itself is putting men and women on UNEQUAL footing. That is misogynistic.

Go and re-read my post, real sexual abusers would be behind bars, and we would not need to have this conversation because their business would not exist. My point of contention is your witch hunt.

And you're full of shit, especially this statement: "Then belittling women because they chose to do this to either have fun or make some extra money or both." Quote me or stop putting words in my mouth.

I have no problems with women being in this profession, I need them to be in this profession. I have a problem when they start the political activism and attacking other men here, which is what the original post was about. If you want to be an activist, go be one but do it on your own clock and when you're on the job, at least be professional and keep business separate from your personal life.

My 2 cents worth: If someone is either convicted of a sexual crime, or it's well-known that they are a perv towards their models, they should be banned.

If someone is convicted of a non-sexual crime, it has no real bearing on things here, unless they are dishonest and operate a store.

Perhaps too, a stronger policy on respect for women. Yes, with WAM they become 'objects' of our desire, but they are certainly not objects at all, they are human beings. We need to treat them that way, and if someone disagrees, it ought to be grounds for banning, if we are to keep this a safe place for women.

A real grey area is when WAM gets mixed with bondage. We may see a scene where a woman is tied down and pied or otherwise messed up against her wishes. She may even struggle, and we've all seen the ball-gags, the forced-eating devices and more on here. Who gets off on seeing that? People who fantasize about doing similar in real life? Why are we catering to those who fantasize about harming women? (even if they don't and no models are harmed)

I'm jumping ahead too far, but these thoughts occurred to me and I thought I'd express them before I forget them.

This is a pedantic point, but I don't think that's quite true. You have to take an oath when you give evidence during a trial, but not when you enter the plea ("guilty" or "not guilty") during an arraignment. See:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/rasso-guide/first-hearing-crown-court-plea-and-trial-preparation-hearing-0

However, I don't think it makes much practical difference. I.e. if you stand up in a courtroom and say "I'm guilty" then you shouldn't really be surprised when people believe that you're guilty.

As usual, feels good in principle, open to abuse in reality. Alright, what's stopping a female model who had a business falling out with a male producers to start a fuss here and say "he's a perv to me"?


Now, we have the crazies coming out from the woodwork. So in your other post you don't like quicksand. Now you don't like bondage, and force feeding too. Hey you know what, I'm not into those stuff as well. But intolerant extremist like yourself will casts whatever you don't like as "doing harm". Jesus Christ, pass your moral judgement somewhere else.

I'm just going to try and steer this back on topic and offer my support for Ms. Banks. I would love to go on a rant about how both these threads have brought out the absolute worst in this community. I'd love to rant about how this is the most embarrassed, ashamed and disdainful I've been of this place since I've been here, and I'm slowly getting the sinking feeling that it's only going to get worse. I'd love to go on a rant about how a week's worth of incels, misogynists, predators, rape apologists and women hating, faux-intellectual, buzzword spewing, victim blaming dregs holding back progress have crawled out of their dark, moldy corners of the internet, and yet it's people trying to make a positive change like Penny that are made to feel like leaving is the only course of action. I'd love to launch frustrated attacks at certain people and express genuine concern for the women in their lives but I don't want to make this about me and make this place just a breeding ground for more idiocy and speaking out of either strong emotions or just plain hate.

So all I'll say is I'm really sorry to see you go, Penny. So much more than just content, you've been a voice of reason, an advocate for those who don't feel safe to speak, and have been brave enough to offer opinions from the perspective of a producer, a woman, and unfortunately a sexual assault survivor. And although it's depressing that that's just one more needed, valuable voice that this site really needs to get better gone, and the site is now inching ever more towards the side of people that either don't know or just plain don't care about the views, safety and experiences of women and any other marginalized or vulnerable demographic here on UMD, I can absolutely empathize and understand your decision to leave. I just wish more people had the smarts, experience and bravery to speak up like you have, because that's the only way positive change is going to happen. I know it probably doesn't feel like it but at least a small handful of people have been encouraged and felt brave enough to speak up because of you, myself included. I know it's not much, but you can rest easy you did some good while you were here. I'm sorry the vast majority haven't benefitted, or worse, actively stood against it.

I really hope you find somewhere you aren't made to feel unsafe, doesn't damage your physical and mental health and where you are wanted, respected, valued and safe. You deserve it. You made a difference here, and a small group of people really value what you've brought as a person and advocate, not just a content creator. Go well. Much aroha.

You are siding with Leon who he's admitted he groped the model over the model. There is no grey area when both parties agree the act happened. You are asking the victim to explain herself to you. Who the fuck are you to request that? You don't have the right to judge anyone. A court does and the court found there was cause and judged him. As for you theory about he'd be in jail if he was guilty. This is not a rape, thank god, there are plenty of situation where men have not gotten jail time and forced to go into counseling. Your logic is stupid and moronic if that is the excuse you are using. "Your line of work" "we are your customers" like men are in charge of what content women make. You are attacking a woman, penny, and then claiming the real victim is Leon. Do you know what though, if you can't see it then you aren't going to. So, I will repeat what I said earlier. Slither back under whatever rock you climbed out of and fuck off.

No sadly it was not and is not (well maybe the very early days before it was so commercial). Look at how many women join and leave due to nature of the people on the site. Yes there is good and bad in all life, sites groups etc but we do seem to have more than our fair share.

What life experience would that be, exactly?

And he pleaded guilty under the bad advice of his attorney and the personal situation he was in (kids and that stuff). There was no judgement, he pleaded guilty. I am sympathetic towards Leon's situation yes, it does that not mean that I think he is without fault. I think we should be aware that he was up against a bad no-win scenario, and choose the path which he thought at that time would result in the best outcome. Go re-read my post, where I mentioned he will have to live with the consequences of his actions, whether it be his inappropriate behavior or choice in pleading guilty. Now, if after knowing that you want to condemn Leon, go ahead. My point is that people should make informed choices and judgements and not act like sheep.

Btw, that quote from me was a factual statement. Most customers are probably guys. And I'm giving free advice to tone down the politics and activism.

In my line of work, I listen to my customers and cater to their needs, even IF it makes me personally unhappy, uncomfortable and goes against my values. As long as my employer does not commit a crime against me (and they have not), it is my choice to remain in that line of work. Do I wish things would be better? Absolutely. Do I make a huge fuss about it in the workplace? No I don't. If you want change, go vote, or join an NGO, but leave this toxic BS out from business.

That's politics and I don't want to unnecessarily bring in more crap. Suffice to say, I have seen multiple cases of people losing their livelihoods because of some extremist 1% ideologues, that would never have survived an actual legal challenge.

Men are definitely victims sometimes. But this is not the time or place to take wage that battle. For now let's keep focus right now on the victims of this story and how the community deals.


That one hurt

Not my intention and not aimed at you personally but you probably know more than others there is a degree of truth. Look at all the differences you have added for female profiles (quite rightly and sadly needed) yet look at how many women join and leave. Let's not even start on the amount of rules you have had to put in place re minors and shows for them. We have people hiding behind charity and fake causes to get their wam fix. People harassing people of all ages on social media platforms that have got messy or if they haven't to do it as a milestone etc. I do genuinely feel like we have more than our fair share of wrong uns. Not saying there are not good people on here but we could and should do better calling things out.

Yes, there are a ton of extra protections that I built into this site for the protection of women, as responses to so many years of dealing with these scenarios. When you join as a female, most of the privacy options are enabled by default, just in case the new user doesn't know about them and to prevent getting bludgeoned with chat messages or whatever as soon as they join.

All that is necessary because of the nature of humanity, and it's not an indictment on this community. UMD didn't invent creeps; We put in the work daily on keeping them out. I think it's important to keep focus on who the real antagonists are. When we get attacked by some creep we all feel it and we come together to try and deal with it. It's not time to throw the community itself under the bus as if it was our fault.

Also, let's please not construe every woman who leaves as her being scared off by some man. Women can remove their own accounts for any reason a man can, and assuming they've been scared off by a man is in itself, sorta misogynistic.



This is an adult site that hinges on interests that most of us started when we were little kids that metastasized into fetishes later in life. Not everybody who arrives here understands a clear delineation between those two worlds. So it requires extra effort on the part of policy and moderation to keep these things separated. As the site grows and more people join, it's not likely that everyone will understand this right away. It's also important to remove people who know better (like Regis) who make it their personal mission to misinform people on the distinction between kiddie stuff and mainstream stuff. That's the most dangerous thing that can ever happen to this site.


Form what I understand, it's pretty much always called out. We can't control what perverts do on every site of the internet but we can kick members off of here who are doing that, if they can be positively identified. We can't control the world but we can keep our own place neat and tidy

In full disclosure, I want to mention Penny's Twitter. She's not responding here anymore but seems to have things to say there: [link to Penny's Twitter removed--cutting ties and disassociating. -MM]

Also, I think she has reported UMD to a harassment site at [site URL removed, and it's not a harassment site. I actually meant to say anti-harassment site! -MM]. I don't really know what that is but apparently we are now on their list, and Penny is organizing something against us through there. That's fine because we have nothing to hide, and we are very used to scrutiny. The more the merrier baby.

Hopefully the level of vile behavior she got here from a certain subset isin't now happening on twitter.

Penny still hasn't deleted her UMD account, and the floor is 100% open for her to come talk to us if she wants to. Her concern is for the community and, well, the community is here. I'm here. You're here Dalamar666. We all here.

That is fine, this is standard SOP for the twitter extremist and she's obviously one of them. I've seen this type of behavior in my non-WAM life countless of times.

I hate to bring this up again:

"Also, legal factors aside, I would caution Leon from apologizing to the mob [this is not directed at any one person, but "the mob" in general]. The cancel culture people are NOT interested in your confession. All they want is to DESTROY you. These people do not believe in forgiveness or redemption, they just want to see you suffer and die. If you are really innocent, do not bend the knee. Once you bend the knee, they will just capitalize on that and attack you even more."

Don't forget that MM ruled very favorably with regards to Penny's faction (for the lack of better terms).

I respect the hell out of you for running this website for as long as you have. I think you generally do an excellent job managing this place and its various personalities. I would never want to do it, so I'm thankful that you do.

I can understand why you might be frustrated at Penny for some of the things she is implying about you and your motives for handling the situation the way you did. People like Penny can definitely come across as annoying - it feels like they make every situation about themselves and come off like they are more interested in drama for drama's sake then actual progress on whatever underlying issue is causing said drama. It feels like it is most important that they're centre stage and they're the most visible victim, no matter who or what may actually be involved in the situation at hand.

Penny has chosen to disengage from the UMD. And while I am not saying this is your true motive, calling attention to her Twitter at this point, along with the comment about her reporting UMD, reads like you're tacitly encouraging people to go harass her. I don't think that's what you meant - I think you saw her sharing details of private conversations you had with her, and figured everyone should be informed - but it isn't the best look.

I believe Penny when she says she is a sexual assault victim, and I can understand why this episode would be frustrating and emotionally taxing for her, and for other assault victims who happen to be members of our community.

I fully, one-hundred percent believe that Leon sexually assaulted the model in question by grabbing her breast without consent. Leon can no longer be welcomed in the community for that reason alone. Sexual assault is sexual assault. To someone who has been assaulted, calling it "grabbing a tit" in the same sentence where you mention serial rape (as opposite ends of a vast spectrum) minimizes the pain and trauma that the person may have felt. This gets said a lot, but words do matter. In this case, our words signal to all members of our community that we understand the gravity of certain actions and their negative impacts on the people who have been the unwilling targets of them. Penny isn't just splitting hairs here. A large portion of this site's population of women consists of sex workers. Sex workers have between a 45-75% chance of being sexually assaulted in the course of their work. We should not minimize the gravity of what has happened, even unintentionally.

For all we know, this is an isolated incident that Leon considers to be the biggest mistake of his life, but the consequences still need to be the same. Leon is a convicted sex offender. This isn't a he-said, she-said situation. The fact that this got to the point where he accepted a plea deal means that the crown felt good about its case after reviewing the available evidence. Leon preyed on the vulnerability of someone who trusted him to be a professional. He should never be allowed to do so again. You obviously can't control what Leon does outside of UMD, but you can control his ability to monetize this site's community directly. Allowing him to remain would send a certain message to those of our community that have experienced sexual assault.

I understand why you wanted to keep the discussion open. You have always prided yourself on operating the UMD transparently and making sure you explain every major decision. In this case, I think the community would largely be behind you saying, "news of Leon's conviction came to light, and for that reason, he has been banned and his stores have been removed." Leon's offense is egregious enough where I think this would be warranted. There is a time and a place for community engagement and discussion, but in this case, allowing the discussion to go on for as long as it did before making a clear and unambiguous statement about UMD's position on the core matter - that Leon sexually assaulted one of his models - contributed to the viewpoint that UMD is tolerant of such people being in the community. I'm sure that you disagree with this view.

You seem like someone who is receptive to feedback, and I hope this doesn't come across as harsh. I appreciate everything you and the team does for this website and community.

She screen-shot private messages that were between me and her and posted it to her public Twitter. I have no problem with it BTW. But that usually means you want as many people to see it as possible. I was deliberately not hiding from accusations she was making. That's why I linked to it with that note.

The community has been pretty evenly divided, with many people taking her side. Linking to her Twitter was not meant to send a mob or encourage harassment.

If it was not meant to send or encourage a mob, why put the hey guys that hate Penny, I think that she is trying to get the site you have been defending shut down. Here is her twitter talking bad about me.

This is not helping anything. Can yall please stop this?