We live in 2020, not 2000. People are well aware that when they post pics or videos online that they could be shared on a different site. Nobody who uploads anything is naive about how the web works or how people use it.

If people are putting videos of family events on youtube, then you have to ask yourself why they make them public in the first place. When was the last time anyone here decided that they'd rather enjoy an audience for their family BBQ?

Likewise, if a church or youth leader is videoed being pied, why is this event now being made public on YouTube? There would have been dozens of kids present in the first place, and it's quite clear that the event was not meant to have ended up in a public domain.

In short, you can't control who watches your videos on YouTube (unless you make them private), or why people watch them, or if they're cranking one out while they watch them - but as owner of the channel you CAN control what you upload. And with us all savvy about the internet these days, people need to ask themselves why such videos are being uploaded on YouTube instead of, say, Facebook where you can arrange for just your friends and family to see it much easier.

Once something is uploaded, it is "out there" for good, and can be shared practically anywhere. I doubt anyone who uploads anything these days is NOT aware of that fact.

There's two issues here that are being conflated

(1) Enjoying yourself by watching non-fetish material.
(2) Being a creep and reaching out to the content creator, leaving creepy comments and other harassing behavior.

Behavior (1) hurts nobody, and yes if it happens to me I wouldn't care. Maybe some gay guy jerks off from some vanilla video I have on youtube. I don't care, because I don't know about it. Behavior (2) is harmful, because now you are establishing contact. Let's say you wank my vids and are reaching out to me, I would be upset.

I don't know of anyone who is into candid WAM who is supporting behavior (2). Yes, there is that one or two jerks who ruin it for the rest of us, and trust me, we want that guy gone as well. So please be specific in your discussions.

Incidentally, having met a few models, I sometimes find it hard to jerk off their videos now. Not that I don't enjoy the content, but I feel 'guilty' because they're not some anonymous person on the internet. If this is their full-time job I don't feel so bad... but I would feel bad if it's like a side gig for them.

IChris001: you wrote: "...when people misuse their guns to kill people." Technically, that would not be misuse, as guns are made to kill people. Is a bartender who continue to serve alcohol to a customer who then, inebriated, drives home and kills someone in a car crash 'at fault'? The law, in some states, says yes.

Sorry, but you brought up the analogy.

As for legality: "...being 18 yo is the only thing that factually matters." It's not the ONLY thing that factually matters (many facts could matter here; see prior comments in this thread)...it MIGHT be the only thing that LEGALLY matters, except in the case of Gawker vs. Hulk Hogan which awarded a massive fine to Hogan and his family. It doesn't matter if the people are 18; if the content is presented in a way that defames, demeans or causes harm to that person (giving them 'standing')...then it can be legally challenged (the lawsuit may not succeed, but it can proceed as a legal complaint).

There's quite a few people on Twitter running charity gunge events who are clearly wammers, enticing semi famous people to get messy for the cause - that makes me fairly uncomfortable. If you're knowingly making material that people are going to jerk off to, you have a responsibility to tell the victim IMO

Not to get all cynical here, but a LOT of people are coming at this from the standpoint of, "We shouldn't post these clips on a fetish site because then it might encourage folks to leave unsavory comments on scenes not meant to be viewed in a fetish setting."

Hate to tell you, but that cow left the barn a LOOOOOONG time ago. Our old friend AntDX, while quiet lately, usually had a bunch of awful, sexualized comments underneath the most innocent YouTube clips (including plenty with kids) long before anyone on the UMD would ever post a link. And he wasn't the only one.

There are plenty of YouTube channels run by WAMmers that include "innocent" clips in their WAM-based playlists... or those videos are "Favorited" on their channel. Some of the clever ones take the original clip and reupload it on their own channel out of context, which avoids the possibility of the user seeing awful comments.... but also brings up a new grey area where the content is now being actively promoted as WAM fetish material, whether or not that was the intent of the original owner. (And, of course, the clip stays up even if the original uploader decides to remove it, unless they somehow accidentally stumble upon the copy among the billions of other clips on YouTUbe.)

As for Twitter and charity WAM and swinging votes, our pal RunninRebel has been doing this (under different names) for longer than most of you have even been on the UMD. At one point he was confronted on the UMD, pledged to change his ways, quit/got banned (can't remember which).... and immediately kept going under a new name. He's not gonna stop until he's dead. And again, not the only one. The other forum has about 80% of their posts devoted to trying to get celebs gunged on UK kids shows.

At this point, there's no hard-and-fast rule (beyond the inclusion of minors, or adults in any show "geared" towards kids) as to what you can post on the UMD. While I personally think no "personal" clips should be added here, that's a judgment call that's different for everyone, unless the ToS gets changed. (By "personal" I mean anything on Facebook, or anything on YouTube unless it's clearly viral or a big-time name. If the video you're posting already has 50K+ views, said channel clearly wants hits no matter what.)

But posting or not posting "non-WAM" clips on the UMD isn't gonna change the behavior of the small percentage of individuals who feel the need to cross that line, repeatedly. And like political discourse online, no amount of UMD arguing. shaming, or "do the right thing" pleas are gonna dissuade their behavior in the slightest.

I know the person you mean and interestingly enough they blocked me shortly after I discussed what can be done about this with some colleagues and friends from UMD. I've never spoken to them directly so the only conclusion I can come to is that someone thought that protecting predators was more important and made sure to warn them.


Back on the main thread topic: I've ranted about this on multiple other platforms many times before so won't repeat everything I've said before but essentially in my view, fetishing people without their consent will be and always will be wrong to me.

Informed consent should always be the goal; your sexual desires don't override other people's rights to not be sexualised without their consent.

Exactly.

This is exactly what I mean and I can't understand why some people don't get it. If you want to trawl YouTube and find videos of people doing something that gets you off then go nuts, as long you don't harass them obviously. But don't post that video onto a sexual fetish site, I really don't see why it's that difficult.

My three cents (which are actually worth 1 cent)

There's a hard and fast rule I think everyone abide by when posting any video on any public platform; If you don't want it everywhere, either don't post it or make it private.

With that said, there's an ethical responsibility not to embed certain videos on fetish sites. The owner of the video can go into their youtube analytics and see where their video is embedded.

1) Movies or TV scenes to me are fair game
2) Regular videos - community, church, etc...just regular people = no.

Now...am I allowed to jack off to said videos while watching them on youtube without feeling guilty? Fuck yes I am.

What...if I have a jeans fetish that means no women can posts videos where they're wearing jeans? It is "creepy" if I'm getting off to it? No. If you think so, take your moral compass and throw it in the river, then calm your ass down.

Lots of good stuff in SS's comment, which I won't comment on, but just one small remark on this part...


I agree that FB posts are out of bounds because there's a reasonable expectation of privacy on that platform, and also enhanced risk of having your identity compromised, so it's creepy as all get-out to post that stuff here. But I couldn't say the same about public videos posted on Youtube, since Youtube is the internet's version of town square.

There is nothing personal or private on YouTube, unless people label it as such and stop it from coming up in searches. Indeed, each and every public video has a share button, so people are under no illusions that such videos could be shared on forums and social media. You could argue that things uploaded to YouTube in the first couple of years of its existence might not have known what they were letting themselves in for, but anything from the last ten years has to have been uploaded with full knowledge of what's going to happen.

As an aside, though, a channel that gets 50,000 hits might not actively be promoting it. I've got a video online that hit 30k in five weeks, although it has nothing to do with WAMing at all, but that's beside the point (and I'm very certain other videos get a lot more hits than that). Sometimes videos just take on a life of their own.

Exactly, and I think it best that the site and community distance itself from this kind of content specifically because of this and the legal arguments brought up by wamajama. It doesn't matter if they're 18, any one of these families could bring a lawsuit against UMD saying that linking their innocent get together on the site led people like Ant DX to make the harmful remarks that caused "x" damages. I mean, online bullying lead to August Ames committing suicide.

Should people be more protective on what they post on line, definitely. I'm not making the argument that they shouldn't know better by now. Should we, knowing that (and let's be honest we know when something is intended to be sexual or not) a piece of content is not meant to be for sexual consumption repost it here? No, we should know better. Again, this is a separate argument from if you like it personally or not. I'm not trying to guilt or kink shame anyone on what makes their parts feel tingly.

Just because we CAN do a thing doesn't mean we SHOULD do a thing.

Again, what you enjoy on your own is your business (within obvious legal boundaries). It's just before you share with the class, maybe you should consider the rest of the students. But maybe I'm just overly conscientious of others feelings.

I don't think this is a religious argument, or even self-righteous. To me it's just courtesy, decency, and respect.

There's at least 3 I know of on Twitter, very interested to know who you're talking about

I like how this topic evolved. I think the community has matured. If I remember let's say 10 years ago, there were hundreds of photos taken at music festivals, sporting events, charity events etc that included people getting messy.

As a part of my job I attended music festival that was known for mud. I won't say I didn't enjoy the views, but I have set a clear limit to myself. I was there to photograph the festival for the media, not for a fetish community. People attending the festival consented to being photographed for media and marketing purposes (festival TOS), but not for adult websites.

What bothered me at that festival was when I saw a person there who was active on this forum. He was taking a lot of pictures and videos and some of them were even posted here. I felt perplexed when I saw that he intentionally interacted with muddy female attendees, filming them and taking pictures. I'm not here to judge him, but I was definitely bothered when I saw the pictures he took posted here.

I was sent to that festival a few years in a row. My first was around 2000, when there were no cameraphones, even digital cameras were extremely rare. The atmosphere was much more relaxed at that time, a lot of women being topless etc what I attribute to the fact that there were only professional photographers taking pictures and maybe someone with their point-n-shoot film camera.

Fast forward 10 years with digital cameras, smartphones and social media and people were noticeably more reserved, knowing they can end up on the internet and that a future employer might find their muddy topless pics.

I think privacy is essential to feel free and relaxed. In my opinion, this whole thing of putting everything online has gone too far. We have everything at our fingertips, but we have lost that feeling of freedom that even if we do some harmless stupid shit, it won't haunt us in the future.

If I could, I'd immediately return to the world before cameraphones and social media.

An observation: As far as I can tell just two women have contributed to this thread. Both are more than happy to take part in WAM fetish content, and by coincidence both of them have shot for Saturation Hall, as a result of which I know they are both very with it, grounded, reasonable people. And both have said that they aren't happy with non-fetish content being fetishised.

In contrast everyone else, myself included, and all of us I think male, have come from the viewpoint that everything that can be fetishised will be and the differences are more about how to manage that to reduce harm, but while just accepting that it is going to happen regardless.

I can't help think that's an interesting difference in views, especially given that people often bemoan the relative scarcity of female participation in our fetish other than as paid models.

Note I'm not trying to cast any kind of judgement, this isn't meant as an attack or moral preaching, but rather a kind of "this is something that for all of us is probably worth at least thinking about" comment.

Miss Abigail's post: https://umd.net/forums/gonna-have-to-be-that-guy#postid_764551
Penny Banks' post: https://umd.net/forums/gonna-have-to-be-that-guy?start=30#postid_764767

It's like trying to tell BAME people why something offensive isn't racist.

Which is why I can't get why people can be of the opinion that posting non-fetish clips and pics on a fetish site can possibly be okay.

The other part of the discussion is prudential -- like, looking at perceived risks in a relatively cold-blooded way, and seeing how they affect the actual human experience.

This is a commercial site, not an actual community. The site isn't a charity. And, all other things equal, informal content distracts from produced content. So, any genuine humans who are looking for romantic relationships or human playfulness and not just buying/selling erotic experiences are going to end up disappointed.

This is an open site, not one that tries to draw a meaningful line between private and public sharing of content. So there's also the enhanced risk of exposure, no matter what you post. That means there's also always the risk of us being "discovered", and looking like a bunch of lewd gawkers and exhibitionists, which (quite understandably) leads to the original poster's worries.

It's not like that at all. Not remotely.

I'm sure if you go to a leather fetish site, there are plenty of photos of people wearing leather items of clothing that were taken for reasons other than turning people on. The whole reason why we are all here is because we saw something at some point that was WAM-related and it turned us on. And I would guess that 90% of the time, that realisation that it turned us on came after watching something that was not intended to be a turn-on.

You can control what you upload to the internet and the privacy settings, but you cannot control what goes on in people's minds when they view it. If it's in the public domain (not in the legal sense), then it doesn't matter whether people wank over it on here or whether they wank over it on YouTube. It's on the internet anyway.

In fact, considering some are worried about crude comments left on YouTube videos, it's probably better if people share them on here and then watch and comment on them rather than the original posting on YT. And if people were really worried about the way their video of a food fight was being commented on on YT, then they can just turn the comment facility off and/or erase the comments.

My view is like this, if it's something that was clearly not intended to be a fetish shoot or even geared like that then I would not share it on a fetish site including here. Some people get messy to have fun in a non fetish/sexy way (like muddy concerts or church pieing for charity) and it just doesn't seem right to put that material here.

Yes, it is. The only two females on this thread have both said they don't like it and it makes them uncomfortable. They don't speak for all women but it's a good a reference as we're going to get here. Yet there's still guys here trying to tell them (not directly at them) that it's fine.

The rest of your post I'm going to assume isn't directed at me because it is then you've completely missed the point of what I'm saying. ALL I have said here is I don't think it's right to post pictures and videos not intended to be sexualised on a fetish or sexual website. I'm well aware that we get turned on by stuff that others would find innocuous, that's not my point. Enjoy those pics and vids in your own head, in your own house, in private. Nobody can stop you getting turned on by something, most of us don't get to choose what turns us on and pushes our buttons.

Why are you making this about gender? It's not an issue about gender. There are men in YT videos too that are being watched in a different way than as intended.

To suggest it's a gender issue is utterly nonsensical. Either you are against the issue in principal, or you're not.

I'm sure there are and I'm quite clearly against the issue in principle.

Sexual objectification is clearly something women face more than men every day in society, that's why it's fair to listen to them on issues like this. Of course men do to. White people also have to deal with racism, but are you going to argue now that black people don't have to deal with that issue more often though, for example?

Anyway, I've made my position clear on the issue, and I don't really see how "don't post candid, not intended sexually, non-fetish material on a fetish website" is such a divisive issue. So I'm done.

Agreed. I've been cranking it to old Noel's House Party clips for 20 years. (Not continuously. I don't have the stamina.)


I think I disagree on this. Clips from TV shows viewed by millions are one thing, as has been previously pointed out - those are fair game. But it's not a good look for our community if some video of a guy or girl being pied/slimed at a local country fete or church/school event makes its way onto here. Yes, it's in the public domain. Yes, wammers will be watching it on Youtube, and that's fine. But if that kind of material is regularly posted on here - videos from small community events that were never intended to have any sexual connotation and where the participants wouldn't reasonably expect a large audience of people to be watching, let alone kinksters - it would make UMD and its users look really bad.


fatmup is absolutely right on this. I wish it weren't the case too - that we could treat an issue like this completely gender-neutrally... but women are treated differently to men online, so we don't have that luxury. Back in the 2000s, a female friend and I took a totally innocent pic of her wearing a t-shirt with a nonsensical slogan and submitted it to a site for making fun of bad English. We thought it would get a laugh, but once it was posted, well over half the user comments underneath were about her boobs, and a lot of them were so crass and lascivious that we had to ask the moderator to remove them. Neither of us expected that, and if I'd been the one wearing the t-shirt it simply wouldn't have happened. That was just an innocent pic on a comedy site. Now think how much worse it is in the context of totally non-sexual pics/videos of women taken innocently at local community events finding their way onto male-dominated fetish sites.


This.

I'd much rather people comment on the links here than on YouTube. Everybody who uploads something to YouTube is looking for a large audience. That's the way it works. I have never known anyone upload something to YT and be glad no-one has watched it. One has to wonder why some of these things are uploaded to YouTube in the first place - as I said earlier, a Facebook group would be much more sensible. There are all kinds of fetish sites where images from around the web are uploaded.

The only thing I object to is people being lured into doing something WAM-related without them being told it's a turn on for the person doing the Wamming.

If you're really worried about what women think, then it's the women who are in the videos you should be listening to, not the women on this website - and currently you are making your assumptions based on the comments of two women.

This has nothing to do with male/female, black/white, gay/straight. There are just as many men being looked at in this way as women (probably more from what I've seen on YouTube). You either feel the same way about everyone in this position or none at all.


You seem to be forgetting that we can watch those images on a different site. It isn't stopping anyone on here from doing so just because the YT video isn't posted here. We all know where to go to look for them. The images are out there, they have made them public - which in turn allows sharing. It seems to me you're less worried about the people in the video and more worried about how UMD looks.

I really feel the need to call this out, because there are MANY people on this site who will tell you that this is flat out wrong. Including me. In fact, I'm gonna be frank: while UMD has had its share of drama, on the whole, this is without a doubt one of the nicest internet communities I have ever been part of. And I've been an active member of over a DOZEN message boards over the last two decades.

It boggles my mind that someone could be an active participant in this community for years, and come to the conclusion that most people on this site are only here to either buy or sell porn. Especially given that the biggest producers here can attest to WAM pornography not exactly being the most lucrative business.

Oh and by the way, I'm in agreement with the minority in this thread that we don't really need videos on this site that were never intended to be sexual. ESPECIALLY the kind of amateur youtube shit the OP mentioned.

I would hope those people would first understand the claim being made before deciding to have an opinion one way or the other. I'm describing to you the nature of the site and what keeps it going. We all know it's not a charity, and we all ought to know it has an open site design. These facts are part of the organization, and ones that MM has clarified and defended, to his credit. But, for better or worse, these two facts, put together, means there's a side-effect -- namely, disincentive for one-to-one connectivity which characterizes genuine community.

In any case, there are related discussions in the Off-Topic forum if you're interested. e.g., https://umd.net/forums/how-can-we-make-the-umd-safer-for-women

I'm just going to assume from what you've typed here that you have neither read nor comprehended my posts. Go back and read what I said. Also, I never even specified the UMD, I said "fetish website". All of them.

And as for asking the women in the YouTube videos, go ahead then. Go for it. Ask them if they're happy that their videos are being shared on fetish porn websites, alongside actual porn. I think you'll be disappointed with the majority reply.

What I am trying to say is that it doesn't matter whether they are viewed here or on YouTube - they would still be viewed for the same reason.

On the contrary, the facts you mention mean that the side-effect is that this is a meeting ground for a group of people who share something in common. While there is clearly a commercial element to the site, so there is for almost every form of website. But the majority of people who are members and who lurk probably don't think about that. I have made many contacts through the site - and I've never paid a penny to be here, and never have I felt pressured to pay money to be here by becoming a premium member. Sure, some people make videos and sell them here - but there are hundreds of videos and thousands of pictures that are freely available here for anyone who wants to see them.

This is, essentially, used by many people in the same way that an internet forum or a social media site is. People share, people talk, people private message, people discuss. If you want to dwell on the commercial arm of the site, that's your prerogative, but I doubt that most people here even think of that at all and just see it as a nice place to hang out.