I have from the very begin employed what I consider a very ethical approach to hiring models for my site.

I DO NOT RECRUIT MODELS FROM OTHER PRODUCERS! PERIOD.

Back in 2006 when I began searching for talent for wetandmessy.com I setup a profile on a modeling website. This enabled me to receive daily notifications of when glamour and fetish models were available for work in Los Angeles. In the months before I launched my site, I began to shoot content with some of these models. Even before my site launched, I was getting messages that Liz Ashley or London Andrews (aka: Vicky) would be traveling to Los Angeles. I would also receive messages that Kymberly Jane was available for work in my area. These three ladies are very sought after stars of the modeling world. But these three had also all worked for other messy producers. So, despite my desire to work with them, I did not pursue them and considered them off limits.

After my site launched, Neil at Piefightgirls.com contacted me. He was very interested in working with Naomi and asked me if I could put him in touch with her. We met for drinks and I passed on Naomi’s info. At that time Neil suggested I hire Kym. Great!

A year and a half after I had first started shooting for my site, after disregarding countless e-mail notifications that Liz Ashley was coming to Los Angeles, I got an e-mail directly from her asking if I wanted to shoot her for my site. Great!
The situation with London Andrews (aka Vicky) was more complicated. As I understand it, she had signed an exclusive agreement with Messygirl for which she received no additional compensation. She came to me by way of another model, and when we spoke I told her I was a messy producer. We were not able to work together at that time. In time, she approached me and said she was now available to shoot with me. Great!
Last year at fetish con I meet Ashley Graham, Star, Emily Addison, Lucy Von Trapp, Jasmine and a ton of other models that travel the US working with producers. I’ve been very fortunate to work with many of them. I hope to meet even more this year!

So, this is the history of the how some of the models came to be on my site. I don’t pursue models that work with other messy producers; I don’t contact them or solicit them. This works for me, and this is what I’m comfortable with. I will let the other producers be guided by their own ethical compasses.

Naomi as in Naomi K?

That's the one.

Out of curiosity did you know she shot for me quite regularly before you worked with her?

I'm not mad, I was disappointed though when she suddenly popped up doing shoots for someone else.



Seriously, I just managed to do my first proper shoot since moving to the U.S full time and managed to shoot Star not realizing she had worked for two other producers here.

I haven't got a foggiest how to avoid this happening other than ask more questions of models as due diligence. That or follow every producers every post and hire a psychic to predict who is shooting who and is releasing in the coming months.

Noise, I for one am SHOCKED that you have not memorized the model rosters from my five WAM sites. Apparently, you don't understand how important I am

There are a number of girls that shot with in the past who ended up working with other producers in the wet or messy genres later on. Star, Wednesday, Anna Stevens, Lily Cameron, Annabelle Lee, Amber Chase, Widow Centauri, and a few others. I used to run CraigsList ads (before they got sued by all the right-wing anti-sex idiots) and the girls would contact me to fatten up their tour schedules. I used to get a little bent when I saw them turn up on someone else's WAM website, but since I can't afford to sign anyone to exclusive contracts, I got over it pretty fast.

Without CraigsList, I've ended up getting a lot of girls from some non-WAM producers in my store system. They don't mind because we're in different markets and it gives the girls more money If they can shoot with multiple producers in the same town on the same trip.

Fuck! Studying it and memorizing it boss!




Seriously, it's not just about pissing each other off... it's also about not doing what some idiots do and going and hiring a model that it turns out has worked for every other producer in the U.S thinking he has made a most excellent find.

It kind of devalues everyones stock. It's not like there aren't a million models in the states and we are on each others doorsteps.

Seriously, I'm in Southern California. Hot models are growing on tree's next to the fucking oranges here. Even the oranges have hot sisters. I think I am going to stay hyper local and no big name models. Will suit what I am doing anyway for the most part.

Didn't you think it would be common courtesy to ask us first if it would be ok to use our top two models, who been with us for years and never worked on any other wam sites other than ours? Just a little bit of respect would have been nice.

I've got an idea. If restrictive contracts don't work, why don't you brand your models? Maybe you could tattoo your URL on their forehead.

Seriously, as far as I know, models are not property. If a model wants to work for another producer, nobody has a right to stop her. You may choose not to hire her, again, but you can hardly blame the producer who gives her a job when she's looking for a change of scenery.

I didn't think it would be particularly courteous to ask you if I could shoot with Liz or Vicky. If anything, that puts you in the awkward position of having to say yes, because you really can not say no. Since you have established relationships with your models, it's logical that they would approach you and let you know that they were looking to expand their work opportunities. I have no relationship with you. And the way that I show my respect for you and other producers is to not directly approach any of your models. I have turned down a few custom shoots because they wanted me to hire one of your models. I told them to contact you for a custom.

LOL - surely then you would try to encorage her to shoot for as many different sites as possible.



Hear, hear.

this is really between a model and a producer, if there is an exclusiivity contract then it would be the model who was breaking it, if not then they are free to shoot with who they choose. I don't go looking to shoot an existing wam model but neither do I do a background check to see if they are.

I don't shoot a lot of material, even so I've seen models I've used crop up elsewhere, but do I give a sh1t. (no).

It would be odd for one site to 'stalk' another and I think any advantages such as model popularity would be outweighed by many dissadvantages.

I have shot a lot of material, and in my experience it doesn't outweigh the disadvantages. Like any market, over exposure has its problems.

It's all to do with where the profit actually is in producing.

So you agree (but maybe I didn't word my post well).

After Kym appeared on your site our members asked if we could have her work for us. So we contacted you first and you told us sure, but could you have Liz. So when Liz showed up on your site we contacted Kym and she told us no because we are a competitor and tell Liz hi. So you are telling me Liz just fell into your lap and you didn't contact her directly?

I have an idea: Could we have Team Wamfan and Team Messygirl settle this in the mud please?

(Although I guess figuring out which model goes on which team could be tricky....)

Nope, not your wording that was the problem... that's what happens when I post at four in the morning.

If the producers are producing very similar content, I can see that "over exposure" could outweigh other factors, but if I were to use a pie model in the swamp, it would hardly apply. Not that any self respecting pie model would venture into the snake infested swamp with me ... it's just an analogy.

Not going to argue too much with that. The crossover of pie and slime crowd and the mud crowd must be pretty small.

It's not only small, but sometimes someone wants to see a model in the mud, and the pie/slime producer may not do deep, outdoor mud adventures. So, I don't see the harm in over-exposure. It's more like a model expanding her portfolio.

In any case, the only known WAM model I've ever shot was Stormy Night. As far as I know, she's a free agent, and she asked me if I wanted to work with her. I didn't go asking all of her other producers if I could shoot her. I assumed that she knew what she was doing, and what agreements she had with any other producer. My actor/model release contract has a paragraph that states that the actor must be free of any contracts that might prohibit her from working for me.

Could be argued it isn't over exposure if the model is doing stuff that doesn't cross the streams.

Over exposure is a model doing a bunch of shoots for one person, then another producer you know knows your work then shoots her and you both end up releasing videos in the same few weeks.

Been there, been pissed off at that.

So, if you told me I could use Liz, then how did I steal her?

I sent you the info on Kym that you requested October 17, 2007.



I did not contact Liz after I sent you Kym's information. She contacted me two months later on December 10, 2007. I shot with her durring her Los Angeles trip the following February.



I'm beginning to think it's personal MessyGirl, and that you've created this "situation" out of nothing just to support your dislike of me.