Well folks, if our financial fate hasn't been sealed,now it has. No matter what happens,this country will probably go broke. Since it seems like nobody can be denied healthcare benefits, the healthcare insurers will either have to be bailed out or allowed to go out of business since they'll prob be paying out more than they'll be taking in. If they go out of business,then the government will be the only insurer left. Welcome to socialized medicine.

We may as well be singing O' Canada

Love you Paris,Fawn, and the rest of the WAMF girls!

So, 'land-of-the-free' under the previous regime you would have been comfortable with denying your fellow man healthcare if he couldn't afford it??

any insurance company that goes out of business because of this bill DESERVES to go out of business because they were the ones screwing over people in the first place.

where were you when Bush made our country broke in the first place with billions spent on pointless wars?

Ahh yes. Those who think everyone "deserves" something. For those from another country, you may fuck off. You have no idea what our Constitution says. For those of you from this country who think this is a good idea, you may fuck off also, as you obviously have no idea what your own Constitution says. "You don't think your fellow man deserves health care." You're right. None of us "deserve" this. Sounds good for anyone to get what they want, but I for one can't afford to pay for all of those who can't afford their own health care. And it's middle-class guys like me who will be paying for it. Talk to your smug liberal rich friends in Hollywood who think this is a good idea for me but not for them. I don't think this is something that should be foisted on them, either, but if they're going to open their big mouths about legislation that won't affect them the least they can do is help foot the bill.

This is not about who deserves what. It's about people taking responsibility for their own actions and the government staying where it belongs, which is to defend the nation and allow the states to do their own thing.

well thedude, it's middle class people like you who will go broke paying medical bills because your insurance won't cover you.

stop hiding behind the constitution as the be all end all to everything.

When your mother goes into ketoacidosis because she couldn't afford her insulin and almost dies leaving 3 children behind, THEN you have a right to bitch and complain. I was 13 at the time; too young to see my mother in ICU. Type 1 Diabetes kills with or without insulin but no one should have to make the choice between food for their children or their medication. I know what you're thinking, "Why the hell did she have 3 children when she was diabetic?" You see, my mother found out she was diabetic when her youngest child was born with a blood sugar of 7 and a stopped heart.

You want to talk historical documents? How about the Declaration of Independence?
"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", wasn't it? See that "Life" right there in the front? Sounds important. That's because it is. The right of life for all citizens.

Living around DC, I've been inundated by Healthcare talk. More so, I believe, than the rest of the country. Yes, this bill is far from perfect. (It's been my experience that everything out of Washington is) Yes, this bill is expensive. But how much is a human life worth? If you had, in your hand, a wad of cash equal to your taxes, would you hand it over to a gunman to save a life of someone you didn't know? Could you part with your money willingly if the person you were saving was right in front of you?

You whine about parting with more of your money to pay for medical coverage. If medical coverage was actually code for "Swedish massages" then I would agree with you. But to complain about making medicine affordable for those who can't? That's not only selfish but ignorant as well.

As a 19 year old college student, I know I'm going to be the one picking up the bill later on down the line. But if eating ramen for one more night means someone is getting life-saving treatment, I won't mind in the least. Get your head out your ass and your dick out of your wallet. People are dying because they can't afford medication and all you, or many others, can think about is the bottom line.

I never EVER debate/argue on the Internet (it's like pissing in a sea of piss) but this topic is far too close to home to stay silent.

Devil-cake: I like your style!!
Here in the UK all taxpayers contribute in their taxes to 'free healthcare'. Because there are so many of us the cost per head is relatively nugatory. Perhaps Mr. Obama should consider something similar: such an arrangement would probably silence the doubting Thomas's.

thank you devil_cake. wish more people had your outlook on the matter!

Stop hiding behind the Constitution. Telling. The single reason we will never have a reasonable debate, but I'm bored so I'll entertain your vapid argument. We all have a story about someone we love who died. I have three, though I refuse to insert them into the debate because this particular debate must be based on reason, not emotion. I'll get jumped on for this for sounding callous and uncaring, but the fact remains that the idea of having universal health care sounds great! It SOUNDS great. Let's look at how it will be achieved the way the current administration wants to do it. Increased payroll taxes; increased windfall profit taxes; taxing insurance premiums for so-called "cadillac" insurance policies (the same thing Obama skewered McCain about during the campaign); reinstating the estate tax (aka the death tax, where people pay taxes on money their parents earned and wanted to leave to them); allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire. In other words, RAISE TAXES LIKE A MOTHERFUCKER and then SPEND SPEND SPEND! All the while this guy praises himself for all of his efforts to "help" small businesses by offering them loans to hire more people. Loans....WITH INTEREST! Why not just cut taxes on those small businesses, giving them the INCENTIVE to hire people and offer them health care coverage on their own terms? The free market works this way.

I'll pause now to give you time to Google the term "free market"...........................

Ok good. Now, against my best judgment, I will dabble in a bit of moral relativism so that you will maybe perhaps possibly understand where I am coming from. Medicaid has been ruled insolvent, yet Obama brought out one of the creators of Medicaid as an example of the experts he will bring in to supervise his program during the "summit" with Republicans. Great. A woman who created and presided over a failed program is going to supervise the takeover of 1/6th of the US economy. Also, in the bill is the regulation that you MUST PURCHASE "adequate" health care insurance or else face fines or jail time. Well, it turns out that a senator can serve one term and retire with full pay and health insurance. It takes a soldier 20+ years (20+ YEARS) to get half of his paycheck and partial health care benefits, yet the current health care bill stipulates that retired veterans who receive VA benefits DON'T QUALIFY under their plan and therefore must purchase extra insurance out of pocket or face fines and go to jail. Now, I know you liberals hate the military (and don't give me any of that "I support the troops but not the war bullshit", because it is bullshit and none of us believe you) but surely you don't wish for our veterans to have to kill their retirement plans, drain their grandchildren's college fund, or even skimp on their retirement goals for people they don't even know.

Like I said, we all have a story, but that doesn't mean that someone else should pay for my father, mother, brother, etc. In other words, why should your bad luck be my bad luck? Why should MY bad luck be YOUR bad luck? I'll help someone out if I can (and I have, several times) but who are you to say that my money should be taken without my will to go to something I have no say in?

You call yourselves "compassionate", yet you have no compassion for those of us who work our asses of to provide for ourselves and ASK NOTHING FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOU!

You think everyone has a right to something. Ok. Tell us how much you contributed to private charity last year. I'm guessing nothing or if anything, it was in the shape of a few bags of clothes to the Goodwill. Hardly an offset to what middle-class guys like me are going to pay over time for people who go to the ER for the sniffles.

And I'm spent.

Is that the reason Madonna advised Gwyneth Paltrow to have her child in the US?

Is that the reason a Canadian MP flew to Miami to have surgery?

Flawed system? Yes. Is the answer socialized medicine? No.

The beauty of this is that we don't need to try it to see if it works. Plenty of countries around the world have tried it and seen it failed.

By the way, 45% of doctors in the US think this is a bad idea.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199

Dear Sir,
Elective surgery is one thing - I do that myself, courtesy of elective medical insurance. But if I'm run over by a bus, have a heart attack or my appendix bursts then our good old NHS is there within minutes and does the job very efficiently. That's the beauty of so-called socialized medicine.

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian and all of our citizens have access to "free" healthcare, but I can't seem to understand why so many Americans are opposed to this legislation. I don't understand how people can believe that insurance companies that are out to make a profit are a better alternative to a government-run system. The government is elected by the people and works for the people. Insurance companies are not elected and are only interested in making a profit, which is primarily done by denying you coverage. Your ignorance in suggesting the infallibility of the free market is hilarious.

Sure, Canada's healthcare system is not perfect. Wait times are often long, but at least people are not dying of cureable diseases because they cannot afford health insurance. Yes this bill will cost taxpayers money, but considering the vast ammounts to tax dollars used to fund ridiculous wars and a bloated homeland security programme, I'd say it's a better use of that money. After all, if your dead, what good will democracy in Iraq do for you?


~ruegger~

one thing thats always made me laugh following this debate is the misuse of the word socialism.
to quote from The Princess Bride- "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Ruegger, the whole idea of "insurance companies who are out for a profit" is a canard. Are they out for a profit? Sure! But the only way they can make a profit is if they provide a better service than their competitors.

I'll repeat the line from my previous post: we will now take a moment for you to Google the term "free market."

Liberals are all about the "by any means necessary" mentality. What that means is that you are willing to endure any measure to make something happen....AS LONG AS THE END RESULT THAT YOU WANTED TO SEE HAPPENS.

Well, using your own logic, if the motivation for an insurance company or pharmaceutical company is to make money, who cares as long as the end result is the pharmaceutical companies providing a better product or the insurance companies arguing against each other for who has the better deal?

If money motivates them to develop a more efficient cancer drug; great!

What Obamacare does is remove the incentive for industrious Americans working in the industry to over-achieve. Click the link I provided above regarding doctors who will get out of the biz because there is no incentive for them to stay there.

By the way, the Obamacare plan excludes the President, Congress, some of their aides, and certain congressional aides from changing their health care plans. All other federal employees have to change their health care plans in accordance with the new bill. Funny. "If you want to keep your current plan, you can keep it." Direct quote from Obama himself. He's either a liar, or is so incompetent that he has no idea what is in the very bill that congress passed and he is taking credit for. What should he be today? Incompetent or dishonest? It's one or the other. No explaining this one away.

Nancy Pelosi gets to keep her "Cadillac" plan yet she rails against CEO's of the very corporate heads that keep this country employed about taxing their "Cadillac" plans.

Stop insulting my intelligence by saying this is about "the little guy" or "soccer moms" or "Main St". You can't make something come true by saying it over and over again.

"You can't make something come true by saying it over and over again."

neither can you

That was a direct reference to Obama saying that people can keep their current health care plan when the bill says that people can not, as evidenced by the fact that congress, the president, and other "leaders" and their staff do not have to abide by the very rules they want to lay down for the rest of us.

Way to skip to the very end of my post, ignore every point I made (based on fact and annotated in the Bill itself, by the way) and cling to a zinger. What you said is the internet equivalent of: "I know you are but what am I."

I take it you have no rebuttal for the points I made in the above argument? And by the way, don't bother us with the tired old, "I would, but you're so (stupid/fascist/hate-filled) that you wouldn't get it" routine.

Disprove the points I have tried to make, please. Otherwise, quit wasting our time with grade school arguments.

Jackass. If you get run over by a car you will be treated within minutes by paramedics and then treated by doctors in the the ER. You won't be turned down here either.

dude18,

you've already gone to name calling, go figure. you are on the side of name calling, hate, fear, money, and just plain ignorance. you have already said that people that can't afford health insurance, doesn't deserve health care.

all i can say is, i disagree with you. i feel you are what is wrong with the US. take it for what it is. or rather, in your language, "fuck fuck fuck shit jackass fuck!"

Slimehead 1:
Amen to that!

The problem here, I believe, is that we're not taking money away from offense nor defense to pay for health care. At least not that I've read about.

I'll admit not being incredibly up on the subject, but I wanted to thank ya'll for some insight on the matter, and thedude in particular for some good reading material on the subject. That investors.com article is a pretty good argument in opposition of the bill. I'd like to ask, though, for the sake of this thread: How are we defining 'middle-class' and could you elaborate on the measures that are taking money (specifically) out of said pockets? I haven't seen anything that says "we'll use this tax, but only for those middle class saps." I can't make an argument to either end, but I'd like to learn a little more from those of you who can.